Volume 14 Number 43
Produced: Sun Jul 24 21:08:30 1994
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Florecent chemicals on shabbat
[Ari Kurtz]
Fluoresence
[Rav Yisrael Rozen]
Kosher Plastic
[Harry Weiss]
sofek in kashrut
["Robert Gordon "]
Three Hours
[Yosef Bechhofer]
Waiting between Meat & Dairy
[Abe Perlman]
Waiting between Meat and Dairy
[Susan Sterngold]
Waiting between Meat and Milk
[Meir Lehrer]
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From: Ari Kurtz <s1553072@...>
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 1994 02:27:37 -0400
Subject: Florecent chemicals on shabbat
Shalom Alichem
In regards to Mr. Edells letter in Tchumin 13 there's an article
from Harav Rabinovitz on using a sticklight on shabbat you might want to
take a look at it to see if it's relevent to your case
Ari Kurtz
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From: Rav Yisrael Rozen <zomet@...>
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 1994 15:31:05 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: Fluoresence
I have yet to see this question discussed by contemporary Poskim,
however, I can see no Halachic problem (especially for children).
When the issur of electricity on Shabbat was originally discussed it was
in the context of operating electrical appliances. The case discussed by
Steven Edell refers to the natural phenomenon of absorbing radiation
which later causes a certain degree of luminescence. This is similar in
certain ways to the use of photo-gray lenses which are permitted to be
worn on Shabbat without fear of "coloring".
I would suggest referring to the article by Rav Nachum Raninowitz (the
Rosh Yeshiva of the Hesder Yeshiva in Maale Adumim), which appears in
volume 13 of "Techumin" (in hebrew) and in volume four of "Crossroads -
Halacha and the Modern World", both published by Zomet. There, he
discusses the use of a "Sticklight" on Shabbat which in principle, is a
similar question.
Not everything which "smells" of electricity is necessarily an Av
Melacha.
Rav Yisrael Rozen eng.
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From: <harry.weiss@...> (Harry Weiss)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 94 22:20:49
Subject: Kosher Plastic
Leon Dworsky raised the issue of Kosher Plastics. The subject of the
kosher plastic came up when a member of Shul brought in an article from
a chemical trade magazine about this plastic. Our LOR referred to this
as nonsense. He reminded us of the issue several years back with the
kosher steel. There was a big article about Rabbi Heineman and the
Moslems developing this kosher steel. Shortly thereafter Rabbi Levy
wrote a big article in the Jewish Homemaker saying this was nonsense and
a waste. Rabbi Levy also disclosed that this Kosher steel was used
primarily in the production of automobiles. I still have not seen an ad
in the Jewish Press for Glatt Chevys (Or would it be Glatt Cadys).
Harry
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From: "Robert Gordon " <U08383@...>
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 1994 14:54:02 -0400
Subject: sofek in kashrut
In the July 4 issue of Chemical and Engineering News there is an article
entitled "First Kosher Seal Given to Plastic Resins." The gist of the
article is that polyethylene and polypropylene used in making plastic
packaging usually contain "animal-tallow-derived lubricant additives
such as calcium stearate, zinc stearate and glycerol monostearate" which
are non-kosher. Recently a company called Solvay Polymers altered its
manufacturing process to use vegetable-derived stearates and has
received a hechsher from Star-K Kosher certification.
The reason I am bringing this up is the following. According to Rabbi
Moshe Heinemann of Star-K, "there is leniency in kosher laws allowing
pre-existing inventory to be used until the alternative can be fully
developed within a reasonable period of time. In the future, however,
when faced with the alternative, one must opt for the certified
product."
I find this reasoning puzzling and am wondering if there is a general
principle involved. In the case of a sofek (such as milk) I can see the
heter of using the questionable product when a certified one is not
readily available, since we don't know for certain if the unkosher
ingredient is present. But what logic permits the use of a product that
is known with certainty to contain a non-kosher ingredient? Is it
possible that the staus of the stearates as a food substance is in
itself in doubt?
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From: <YOSEF_BECHHOFER@...> (Yosef Bechhofer)
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 1994 16:23:46 -0400
Subject: Three Hours
The logic given by Mina Rush for the three hour custom, varying times
between meals, is noted by the Great 18th century Ottoman posek, Rabbi
David Pardo. The actual three hour time frame, to the best of my
knowledge, appears only once in the Rishonim, in the Issur vaHeter of
Rabbeinu Yerucham in the back of his Toldos Adam v'Chava, I believe
siman 28. I heard this in the name of the great German Rabbi Yonah
Merzbach, who also added that it is probably a printer's error!
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From: Abe Perlman <abeperl@...>
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 94 11:37:08 EDT
Subject: Waiting between Meat & Dairy
Regarding waiting between Meat & Milk:
I have a sefer called KITZUR SHULCHAN ARUCH al HILCHOS BOSOR B'CHOLOV
which outlines carefully the Halachos concerning waiting between Meat &
Milk. I will translate the relevant pieces for the benefit of the
readership. I have not found a source for when it was started to wait
between Meat & Milk.
"In Maseches Chullin (105a) it is explained that one who eats meat in
one meal is forbidden to eat in that meal also milk. Only in another
meal. Tosfos and the Ravya explain the Gemoro plainly that the Rabbanan
decreed, in order that there be a separation between Meat & Milk, that
in the same meal one cannot eat Meat & Milk. However, if one would make
the appropriate blessing after the meal and take the foods with which
the meat was eaten off the table and set the table anew, one may eat
dairy foods immediately, because it is now another meal.
The Rambam, Rashba & Rosh explain that the Gemoro means that one must
wait between dairy and meat the time span between one meal & the next
and in Talmudic times that time span was 6 hours.
The reason of the Rambam is that when one eats meat pieces of meat
remain between his teeth and until the end of 6 hours those pieces have
the taste of meat and are still considered meat and therefore, one is
forbidden to eat dairy during that time, because it comes out that he is
eating dairy while thre is still meat in his mouth. (And even if he
were to clean off his teeth he must still wait 6 hours because the
Chachomim decreed 6 hours because most people still have meat between
their teeth during the duration of 6 hours and the Chachomim made rules
for the general public and were not selective between one person and the
next.) However, after 6 hours the pieces of meat reach the stage where
they lose their taste and are no longer considered meat and even if
there is still meat on his teeth, one is permitted to eat dairy foods
(according to the Rambam).
The Tur says that one must wait 6 hours between Meat & Milk because
meat is a heavy food and is not completely digested until 6 hours are
over and during that time the taste of meat comes from his stomach to
his mouth. Therefore one cannot eat dairy while he has in his mouth the
taste of meat.
The Tur writes further that there is a difference between his
reasoning and the Rambam's. If the Halocho is because of his (the
Tur's) reasoning, if one chewed the meat but did not swallow it ( and
cleans his teeth) he may eat dairy immediately. However, accoring to
the Rambam he must wait 6 hours even if he didn't swallow the meat.
Also according to the Rambam, if after 6 hours there is meat on his
teeth he need not wash them off but according to the Tur while the meat
is not yet completely digested (as there is still some on his teeth) one
must clean them.
The Tur and Shulcan Aruch (89:1) rule stringently according to both
reasons. Therefore, if one chewed but did not swallow he must anyway
wait 6 hours and if he has waited 6 hours and there is still meat on his
teeth he must clean his teeth.
According to all opinions if he put the meat in his mouth just to
taste it without chewing it or swallowing it one is only required to
wash out his mouth before partaking of dairy foods.
The 6 hours need not be counted from when he finished the meat meal
but from when he last had eaten meat. For example, one who is at a
wedding and from the time he has eaten meat is 3 hours but one has not
yet said Birchas Hamozon, one need not wait 6 hours from Birchas Hamozon
but 6 hours from when he last ate meat. We do find that the Aruch
Hashulchan disputes this ruling and says that one must wait 6 hours from
the time of Birchas Hamozon. However, the poskim do not rule like him.
After eating meat, in order to eat dairy aside from waiting 6 hours
one must have made the apprpriate blessing after the meal and removed
all the foods with which he ate meat. However, if he said the
appropriate blessing but did not remove the meat foods from the table or
removed the food sbut did not make the After-Blessing, one may not eat
dairy even if he did wait 6 hours since having eaten meat.
In some areas they were accustomed to wait 1 hour. The reason for
this minhag is because they follow the ruling of Tosfos and the Ravya
except that they are machmir to also be cognizant of the words of the
Zohar which say not to eat meat and milk neither in ONE HOUR nor in the
same meal. Therefore, they wait one hour from when they ate meat and
even if they bentch after that one hour they just remove the meat foods
and then eat dairy. However some wait 1 hour after bentching because by
that they show that each meal is separate.
Some wait 3 hours between meat and milk. However, it is difficult to
find a source or reason for this minhag. However, German Jews have
accustomed themselves thusly for generations. Therefore, Rav Shlomo
Zalman Auerbach Shlita says that if one is able, one should change from
3 to 6 hours if one is sure about himself that one can be careful. and
especially the women who are in the kitchen and feed the children will
find it difficult to change if they have not done so since their youth.
And therefore, if one cannot change, one can continue to follow the
tradition of one's ancestors to wait only 3 hours."
All this comes from the aforementioned sefer.
Dr. Jason's reason:
>In the time of the Gemara when the six hour mandatory waiting time was
>established, it was customary for people to eat only two meals a day. Each
>meal separated by a time span of 6 hours. Since the prohibition was against
>eating milk and meat at the same meal, the minhag developed around the time
>between the meals (not an arbitrary period, but a practical one) Now it is
>customary to eat three meals a day. Each meal is separated by a time span of
>approximately three hours, hence the custom of waiting only three hours
>between meat and dairy.
will not be valid according to the reason of the Tur or the Rambam.
Concerning Ira Rosen's comment:
>When I was younger, i used to wait 3 hours for poultry and 5 ('into the sixth
>hour') for red meat. The reasoning, apparently (in my own mind) was that red
>meat was considered meat d'oraita (from the written torah) while poultry was
>added to the category meat by the rabbanim so no one would consider that red
>meat (mammal flesh) is like poultry (bird flesh - until the change it was
>considered pareve - as fish still is) and cook/eat it with milk. I have heard
>that this tradition may be a real opinion.
I have also heard of such a thing but haven't the slightest idea of its
source.
Mordechai Perlman
<abeperl@...>
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From: Susan Sterngold <ss117@...>
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 1994 01:24:26 -0400
Subject: Waiting between Meat and Dairy
I heard that the reason for this separation is that the wooden bowls
used to absorb bacteria and that the milk would curdle and make people
sick if put in a formerly meat holding bowl. Is there any truth to
this-could this be a logical explanation for these customs??
susan
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From: lehrer%<milcse@...> (Meir Lehrer)
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 1994 00:38:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Waiting between Meat and Milk
On "Thu, 21 Jul 1994" Ira Rosen wrote:
> When I was younger, i used to wait 3 hours for poultry and 5 ('into
>the sixth hour') for red meat....
>, but i would be interested in any information about this.
As a matter of fact, Rav Ovadia Yosef brings this down (although I
can't remember where) as the Sfardi psak. He says to wait 6 full hours
for red meat and 3 full-hours for chicken. Since I don't remember which
sefer he brought it down in I also don't remember the reasoning he gave
for it. Since all of my sefarim are still locked away in a lift at the
Sachnut warehouse in Zriffin, I also can't check my Ben Ish Chai for
further references, but I'd check there if I were you (assuming you have
access to it).
- Kol Tuv,
Meir Lehrer.
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End of Volume 14 Issue 43
