Volume 18 Number 79
Produced: Sat Mar 11 23:43:12 1995
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Bookstores on Shabbos
[Freda B. Birnbaum]
Continuously Operating Escalators on Shabbat
[Michael J Broyde]
Crockpots
[Leah Zakh]
Escalators and Theft Detectors on Shabbat
[Gedaliah Friedenberg]
Hot water
[Zvi Weiss]
Hot Water on Shabbat (4)
[Adina B. Sherer, David Charlap, Shimon Schwartz, Jonathan
Jacobson]
Hot Water on Shabbos
[Michael Lipkin]
Shopping on Shabbat - MJ v18#75
[Yehudah Edelstein]
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From: Freda B. Birnbaum <FBBIRNBAUM@...>
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 1995 23:31:36 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Bookstores on Shabbos
In V18N75, Avi Rabinowitz asks about escalators, theft detectors, and possible
maris ayin on Shabbos:
[...]
> Is there mar'as ayin in going to a library on Shabbat? Into a book
>store which is particularly reader-friendly such as Barnes and Nobles on
>the West Side of Manhattan? A regular book store?
There may another problem as well, especially in a smaller store which
is owned and operated by one person, of ganeivas daas ("stealing
knowledge") in that you are encouraging the proprietor to think that you
will be giving him business when you have no intention of buying
anything because it is Shabbos. (This might apply at the Barnes and
Noble during the week as well, although by providing the inviting
environment one might argue that the owners are aware of what they are
doing and willing to take that risk and balance it against whatever
benefit they expect to get from this arrangement over the longer term.)
Freda Birnbaum
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From: Michael J Broyde <relmb@...>
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 1995 21:40:21 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Continuously Operating Escalators on Shabbat
> Are continuously operating escalators ok on Shabbat (Access to the
> main section of this Barnes and Noble store is via an escalator), is there
> mar'as ayin involves?
In the next issue of the Journal of Halacha and Contemporary Society
there will be an article on Elevators and escalators which concludes that
even those halachic authorities that disaprove of elevators would approve
of continiously operating escalators as they are currently constructed in
America. This is accepted by Shemirat Shabbat Kehilchata and while Rav
Yosef in Yalkut Yosef appears to argue, either the facts of Israeli
escalators are different from American ones, or a physics mistake has
occurred, as Rav Halprin's analysis of elevators is inapplicable to
American escalators.
Michael Broyde
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From: Leah Zakh <zakh@...>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 21:49:15 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Crockpots
R' Meir Goldvicht addressed the issue in his shiur today. He said that
there exists a problem with regard to the issur hatmana (I think that's
wrapping in English). As he explained (all mistakes are mine not his).
Basicly a crockpot consists of the outer pot connacted to electricity and
the inner pot. The outer pot is similar to fire/gas.
The problem is that it is assur to cook in something that surrounds the
pot, even if you set it on erev shabbat (that's how I understood it).
The answer is that just like we isolate the fire from the pot w/ a blech
so here we need to isolate the heating element from the pot. R' Goldvicht
suggested using several layers of tin foil to be spread on the inside of
the outer pot (the heating eliment). Some one brought up the issue of a
crockpot that consists of only one piece (the heating element is in the
same pot as the food). The problem here is totally different. While there
is no issur hatmana, there is an issur of stirring food that is on the
fire, since thus the cooking problem is inhansed (this is in a nutshell
please don't accuse me of paskening, the issue is a complicated one).
thus the food would have to be removed from the pot before being dished
out, since by taking out food w/ a ladle one is in fact stirring.
The whole inyan is complicated and LOR should be asked, but this
is what I understood oiut of R' Goldvicht's shiur. Can s/o please correct
me if I am wrong.
Leah Zakh
You can reach me at <zakh@...> or 718-601-5939
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From: Gedaliah Friedenberg <gedaliah@...>
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 1995 12:29:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Escalators and Theft Detectors on Shabbat
Newsgroups: israel.mail-jewish
In v18n75 Avi Rabinowitz writes:
> Is there a problem with entering on Shabbat through theft
>detectors in libraries or stores - is there anything activated just by the
>crossing?
> Are continuously operating escalators ok on Shabbat (Access to the
>main section of this Barnes and Noble store is via an escalator), is there
>mar'as ayin involves?
I highly recommend a book entitled "Shabbat and Electricity". I do
not have the text in front of me, so I do not know the author, but
most large seforim stores should have it, and the cover is powder
blue. It was published by one of the institutes in Israel that create
electronics that are usable on Shabbos (they made the metal detector
that is used on Shabbos at the Cave of Machpelah in Hevron, which can
detect metal (eg. guns) and sound an alarm, but never breaks Shabbos).
They discuss these issues (elevators, escalators, security sensors,
etc.) AT LENGTH. I will warn you that it gets rather complex. You
need to know a decent amound about electricity, and have a minimum
background in learning. As a degreed Engineer, and a yeshiva bochur,
I still have a hard time with some parts.
There are many citations of the Lubavitcher Rebbe's works in this
sefer, because he was one of the only gedolim who had university
degrees in science, and had a thorough knowledge of halacha.
I am 1/2 way through this sefer right now, and I find it very
interesting (although a decent part of the book seems to be a
shameless promotion for their innovative alterations for electrical
uses on Shabbos, like the Shabbos electric wheelchair that they
developed. It uses their "gerama switch" to make all connections,
which is accepted in halacha for certain uses).
Gedaliah Friedenberg
<gedaliah@...>
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From: Zvi Weiss <weissz@...>
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 1995 07:59:15 -0500
Subject: Hot water
1. I donot know if shutting off the heat is enough if cold water can
still flow in (on Shabbat) as the hot water (in a Kli Rishon "removed
from the fire" , as it were) will still "cook" the cold water. and
getting hot water from the drain valve is not necessarily too
convenient.
2. For those that can read Hebrew, There is a book "Kashruth V'Shabbat
B'Mitbach Hamoderni" (Keeping Kosher and Shabbat in the Modern
Kitchen) where the Halacah and the technical spec's are given for
"urns" that can provide an "unlimited" amount of hot water on Shabbat.
Basically, the following factors are involved here: (a) a NON-Glowing
(metal) heating element -- which according to the author has the
status of Bishul B'Chama (Cooking in the Sun) or something very
similar and is not prohibited from the Torah (only MiDrabbanan); (b) a
drain system that is NOT dependant upon ne water flowing in such that
when one drains hot water, cold water does NOT flow in (there is an
indirect "Grama" involved); (c)various "triggers". The analysis is
fairly lengthy but not too complicated.
--Zvi.
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From: <adina@...> (Adina B. Sherer)
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 95 7:57:13 IST
Subject: Re: Hot Water on Shabbat
> water tap, cold water is immediately introduced into the hot water
> boiler. One cannot close the cold water coming into the boiler since
> the pressure is needed to "push" the hot water out. Therefore, 1) the
> cold water is heated to "yad soledet bo" (approximately 43-45 degrees
> C.) and "bishul occurs and 2) if enought cold water is introduced into
> the boiler the heat source (gas and flame or elctrical) will go on and
> "havarah" occurs.
We were told the following advice while living in NJ. Right before
shabbos turn the boiler setting to 'pilot' so it would not be able to
continue heating fresh water, and then take a shower or something like
that. That would empty out enough hot water and add in enough cold
water that the remaining water in the boiler would no longer be hot
enough to 'boil' new incoming cold water, yet the water would be warm
enough that my hands wouldn't get frostbite while washing dishes. This
worked very well for us. Don;t forget to turn the boiler back to 'heat'
(or whatever) after shabbos.
--adina
<adina@...>
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From: <david@...> (David Charlap)
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 95 14:14:39 EST
Subject: Hot Water on Shabbat
Zvi Weiss <weissz@...> writes:
>Some years ago, in Chicago, there was a family that had a rather (I
>thought) simple way to get around the problem of hot water on Shabbat.
>This family later made Aliyah and -- alas -- the Ba'al Habyit has passed
>to Olam Ha'Emet
>
>Anyway, what they did was (a) they bought a small air tank and an air
>com- pressor to "recharge" the tank with compressed air, (b) they
>installed a series of valves and piping on their (standard) hot water
>tank such that they could have hot water exit from the BOTTOM of the
>tank and still flow into the house plumbing, (c) an additional cut-off
>valve (I think) to shut off the cold water intake.
This is potentially dangerous. If the tank should run out (or run very
low) on water, the hot heating elements can cause a fire hazard. My
water heater has explicit warnings against energizing the heating
elements if the tank is not full.
If you modify a hot water heater in this fashion, be sure to have it
further modified to prevent the heater from turning on when the water
level gets below a certain point. Otherwise, you may end up starting a
fire.
Personally, I think the two other options cited (use an urn or insulate
the heater and turn it off) would be better, since they wouldn't have
the potential for a fire hazard.
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From: <schwartz@...> (Shimon Schwartz)
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 1995 12:17:15 +0500
Subject: Re: Hot Water on Shabbat
>From: <EDTeitz@...> (Eliyahu Teitz)
A practical method for using hot water on Shabbat would be to use an
urn. Take out what is needed to wash dishes and cool it off by adding
water in a permitted fashion. Likewise for washing hands and face.
My understanding is that one must do the opposite: add hot water to cold
water. The objective is to avoiding cooking the water, i.e. heating it
to "yad soledet bo." By adding hot water slowly to cold water, the hot
water is effectively cooled. If one were to add cold water to
yad-soledet-bo hot water, the first quantity of cold water added might
be heated to cooking temperature.
>From: Isseroff Rivkah <lvrivkah@...>
I"m sure you will get many responses similar to this one: just turn off
the hot water heater right before Shabbat. The water stays comfortably
warm all thru Shabbat, and the new water entering the boiler is not
being heated.
True, it is not being heated by the heating element; it -is- being
heated -by the hot water already in the tank-. If the standing water is
above yad soledet bo, there can be a problem.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: <JonJ1@...> (Jonathan Jacobson)
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 1995 18:59:46 -0500
Subject: Hot Water on Shabbat
In MJv18n72 Rivkah Isseroff says:
>I"m sure you will get many responses similar to this one: just turn >off the
hot water heater right before Shabbat. The water stays >comfortably warm all
thru Shabbat, and the new water entering the >boiler is not being heated. If
your water heater is "thermally >jacketed" the water stays quite warm thru
Shabbat.
There is a problem with this. If you were to use hot water right after
Shabbos started, the cold water going into the tank would be heated by the
hot water in it. A way to avoid this would be to turn off the hot water
heater several hours before shabbos starts, take your showers, etc. and by
the time shabbos started the water would be warm, but not hot enough to have
the problem of heating the cold water coming into the tank.
Jonathan Jacobson
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From: Michael Lipkin <michael_lipkin@...>
Date: Mon, 06 Mar 95 09:22:02 EST
Subject: Hot Water on Shabbos
>From: Isseroff Rivkah
>I"m sure you will get many responses similar to this one: just turn
>off the hot water heater right before Shabbat. The water stays
>comfortably warm all thru Shabbat, and the new water entering the
>boiler is not being heated. If your water heater is "thermally
>jacketed" the water stays quite warm thru Shabbat.
This is not necessarily fool proof. If the water in the hot water
heater remains greater than "yad soledes bo" (the temperature at which
cooking halachickly takes place. 110 to 150 F.?) the incoming cold
water would be "cooked". In the above scenario you would have to turn
off the heater long enough before Shabbos starts to insure that the
temperature would be below yad soledes bo at the start of Shabbos.
Another even simpler solution is to turn down the thermostat on the
hot water heater to a temperature below yad soledes bo and leave
enough time for the heater to go down to that temperature (or keep it
there if you can tolerate just warm water all week long). There might
be a problem of cold water coming in and causing the heater to turn
on, but I don't see why that would be any different than a
refrigerator.
If you're building a new house you can put the hot water heater in the
attic. Doing so would enable you to turn off the cold water intake
before Shabbos. Hot water would still flow thanks to gravity.
All that said, somehow I've managed to survive Shabbos all these years
using cold water!
Michael
<msl@...>
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From: <yehudah@...> (Yehudah Edelstein)
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 1995 20:46:04 +0200
Subject: Shopping on Shabbat - MJ v18#75
Going into a store browsing around (Barnes & Nobles et.) would seem to
me as a common practice of trade, business, which on Shabbat we avoid
inorder not to come to write an agreement, IOU, receipt etc. The fact
that I won't buy today something, I don't think makes any
difference. When restrictions are given by Chazal, it's generally for
everyone. We don't have the option to say that in my case I won't come
to any transgression. Another point of thought would be Hachana
(preperation), to see what to do during the week, what to buy etc. A
farmer taking a walk in his fields on Shabbat, to see what has to be
done during the week with his fields. Yet another problem may be Moris
Ayin, people would be misled to think that if 'Chaim' goes into a store
on Shabbos, then it must be permitted to go shopping on Shabbos and have
the Goy send the things home, and charge all his purchases. To pay money
on Shabbos everyone would know is forbidden, but what about the other
things? At least don't be recognized as a Jew when doing it, in order
not to mislead others. Definitely ask your LOR.
Yehudah Edelstein "<yehudah@...>" Raanana, Israel
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End of Volume 18 Issue 79
