Volume 19 Number 70
Produced: Tue May 23 7:18:12 1995
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Administrivia
[Avi Feldblum]
Co-ed Classes
[Deborah J. Stepelman]
Co-ed?
[Zvi Weiss ]
Ger and Loshen Hora
[Heather Luntz]
Name of God on the monitor.
[Gilad J. Gevaryahu]
Rav Soloveitchik
[M. Press]
Reflections Shabbat Cosmetics
[Chaim Schild]
Telling that Someone is a Ger/Baal Tshuva
[Laurie Solomon]
Vegetarian food / Kashrut
[Merril Weiner]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Avi Feldblum <feldblum>
Date: Tue, 23 May 1995 06:50:32 -0400
Subject: Administrivia
Hello All,
I'm about to hit the road again this morning, but I do hope to continue
getting mail-jewish out while I am on this trip. In the meantime, I'm
going to resend numbers 40 and 41 which it appears did not make it
out. They are not in the archives, so likely is that few if any actually
received them.
Avi
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Deborah J. Stepelman <stepelma@...>
Date: Sun, 21 May 1995 23:38:54 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Co-ed Classes
In my coeducational classes in Manhattan Day School, one of the
many things I learned was 'derech eretz kadma l'torah' (good manners come
before torah).
As a mother of two recent yeshiva high school graduates (one from
a co-ed school, the other unisex), as the wife of one who taught in a single
sex yeshiva high school for many years, as a colleague of many teachers
who 'moonlight' in yeshivot of all flavors, I would like to add
another twist to the thread on coed yeshivot. It is abundantly clear
that the level and degree of derech eretz in coed high schools is far
greater than at single sex ones. There appears to be a calming or
moderating influence present when there are both boys and girls in the
same school. The kinds of antics that go on, the disrespect for teachers
and rebeim, the cutting problems, etc. all seem to be far worse in single
sex yeshiva high schools. The degree of rowdiness may vary based upon the
administration's attitude, but the difference seems ever present. In
some schools it has reached the point of being a chilul hashem.
Non-religious and non-Jewish teachers leave their jobs at many of these
single sex yeshivot getting the impresion that orthodox Jewish kids are
"animals," to use their own words. I have never heard those kinds of
descriptions of the situation inside co-ed yeshva high schools.
Perhaps Rabbi Soloveitchik, zt'l, recognized this as a possible
consequence of single sex yeshiva high school classes as well as some of
the other thoughts being credited to him on this topic.
In any event, isn't the ma'arat ayin caused by the behavior
described worth some weight in this discussion?
Deborah J. Stepelman
Bronx HS of Science ... <stepelma@...>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Zvi Weiss <weissz@...>
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 14:41:02 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Co-ed?
I have noted with interst tje latest postings that assert that the
position recorded in Nefesh Harav is -- somehow -- incorrect. The
reasonings that I have seen are (a) based upon an off-the-record
statement from the Rav and/or (b) the fact that the Rav never changed the
situaiton even after the school was established and/or (c) the excellent
level of student that have been produced.
Regarding (a), I would like to know whether the recipient of this
off-the-record statement ever discussed this with Rav Schachter. As Rav
Schachter states that he is basing Nefesh Harav upon his interaction with
the Rav Zt"L, I do not know that he would distort something of this sort
and it seems that this should be discussed directly. Alternatively, the
situation in Boston was considered by the Rav to be unique and could not
be extended "automatically".
Regarding (b), the Rav *may* have felt that the dislocation of "changing
the school around" was serious enough to be a case of "Yatza Secharo
B'hefsedo: (i.e., the loss is greater than the gain).
Regarding (c), I do not believe that anyone ever asserted that this
system *must* produce only bad students. 'Rather, the issue simply is
wheterh there are legit. halachic sources to permit co-ed as a
"lechatchilla" mode of education. I am pleased that *one* such source
has been cited (although I do not believe that I have access to the
source mentioned). I would hope that more of the discussion will focus
upon the halachic precedents/sources for this matter rather than focusing
upon the "it's OK -- I went there" or "Boys in Yeshivot have problems,
also". If we are going to analyze this problem, we should (in my
opinion) marshal as much source material as we can.
--Zvi.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Heather Luntz <luntz@...>
Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 20:57:32 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Ger and Loshen Hora
In this discussion about whether or not it is permitted to mention that a
person is a Ger, is there some reason that no reference has been made to
the Mishna (Baba Metzia 58b) which deals with onas devorim (wronging with
words)? The Mishna states:
If a person was a baal tshuva, one should not say to him, "remember your
earlier deeds", and if the children of gerim, one should not say "remember
the deeds of your fathers".
Now by mentioning the fact that a person is a ger (or a baal teshuva)
where it is unnecessary one is by definition alluding to the earlier
deeds of the person. And hence if you mentioned it to the person's face that
would be onas d'vorim. It would seem to me to be an inescapable
conclusion that if you said it to somebody else that would be Loshen Hora.
Regards
Chana
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: <Gevaryahu@...> (Gilad J. Gevaryahu)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 11:33:26 -0400
Subject: Name of God on the monitor.
In mj19#33 Mark Kolber <MKOLBER@...> writes "regarding G-d's name on a
computer screen":
> I feel it is irrelevant whether the storage medium is a clay
>tablet, stone, paper or magnetic disc and likewise it is irrelevant >
if the language is Hebrew, English, Braille or Binary. I would >suggest
that the rules regarding context and purpose might >be appropriate
here and here I defer to the experts.
he states further:
> Can we erase the record of the word G-d on a computer disc?
>In my opinion this is the destruction of information analogous to
>erasing the word written on a paper.
=============
The Mishnah in Masechet Yadayim (4,5) States:
"Leolam eino metame, ad sheychteveno Ashurit al ha'or u'vidyo" A text does
not become holy (metame et ha'yadayid is the defilement of the hands) until
it is written in square Hebrew letters (Ashurit) on a parchment (or) in ink
(dyo). It is obvious that the Mishnah is very careful to set the halachic
parameters of when a text (and by extension the name of God) becomes holy.
Mr. Kolber is expanding the restrictions. This Mishnah does not requires
God to be spelled G-d in English; this has been done by some for
educational purpose only. Paper replaced parchment early on, since that
was the normal means of writing, and there is a consensus in halacha
that writing the name of God in Hebrew letters on paper or parchment, in
vain, is prohibited; and likewise is the erasing of His name.
Gilad J. Gevaryahu
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: M. Press <PRESS@...>
Date: Mon, 22 May 95 02:12:57 EST
Subject: Re: Rav Soloveitchik
There has been recent discussion about Mori Rabi ztvk"l and his
positions on various issues. In the course of the discussion
Dr. Jeffrey Woolf indulges in some exaggerations of Rav Soloveitchik's
status in the Torah world and Binyomin Segal more accurately depicts the
failure of the students (but not the roshei yeshiva) of that world to
recognize his extraordinary intellectual greatness. The entire parsha
was a source of pain to many of us. I would not even raise it again
were it not for the rash of historical revisionism that threatens to
blot out any approximation of a true view of the Rov.
I was a talmid (if I may be so bold) of Mori Rabi ztvk"l for about eight
years so I had a reasonable sense of many of his views and of his public
and private positions. Despite the lack of respect shown him in various
circles he himself recognized the greatness of many of the leading
figures in that world and this respect was reciprocated by many. He was
friendly with Rav Aharon Kotler and publicly called him the Gadol Hador;
it was probably this relationship which led him to agree to lend his
name to prominently support the Chinuch Atzmai system of the Agudah. I
personally took the Rov to a number of meetings with leading roshei
yeshiva at various times. I do not mean to suggest that there were not
broad gaps between some of his positions and some of theirs but merely
to note that there was constant communication and frequent respect. That
some or many of their students did not know how to value the Rov may be
an indictment of their rebbeim but I would not leap to conclusions.
I am frequently surprised by the inability of many to appreciate the
complexity of many of his positions. He was a profound believer in the
historical significance of the founding of the state yet he opposed such
religious observances as the recitation of Hallel on Yom Haatzmaut. I
remember how on Yom Yerushalayim itself he would not let Rav
Lichtenstein recite Hallel and instead we said the Shirei Hamaalos. He
was a constant supporter, financially and otherwise, of traditional
yeshivos despite his disagreement with some of what they represented. He
reused to prohibit membership in the Synagogue Council but considered it
pointless. I could go on and on; my central point is that the Rov ztvk"l
was thoroughly grounded in the world of traditional Torah while valuing
many of the possibilities of modernity. Most of all he was a Yere
Shomayim of such profundity that most of those in the Modern Orthodox
world could never grasp the reconciliation of the depth of his faith
commitment with his intellectual breadth. In that respect he was far
closer to the world of simple faith of his ancestors than to any of the
groups who claimed him as their leader.
The painting of a full picture of him awaits an artist whose own
subtlety and depth approaches that of Mori Rabi ztvk"l. In the meantime
we can be grateful to those who have begun to paint approximate
portraits and insist on as much honesty as mortals with "negios" can
achieve.
M. Press, Ph.D. Dept. of Psychiatry, SUNY Health Science Center
450 Clarkson Avenue, Box 32 Brooklyn, NY 11203 718-270-2409
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: <SCHILDH@...> (Chaim Schild)
Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 10:10:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Reflections Shabbat Cosmetics
One of my wife's friends showed her literature for "Reflections Shabbat
Cosmetics" approved by Rav Blumenkrantz. One set of products are
"merely" waterproof to be put on before Shabbas while a second set if
directions are followed can be put on DURING Shabbas. Does anybody know
any details, particularly on the latter kind in terms of how, what, the
basis (the directions do not discuss the halachics), any Rabbis against,
etc.
Chaim
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Laurie Solomon <0002557272@...>
Date: Mon, 22 May 95 11:28 EST
Subject: Re: Telling that Someone is a Ger/Baal Tshuva
Elad Rosin stated:
>As far as I know something is only Lashon Hara if it is a "Gnai"
>(unfavorable) in either an objective or subjective view. If someone
>says that Mr. X is a Ger in a derogatory manner that would satisfy the
>requirements to be deemed Lashon Hara. Otherwise unless you can show
>that being a Ger is objectively a bad thing it would permissable to tell
>somebody else that a specific person is a Ger.
In the book _Guard Your Tongue_, by Rabbi Zelig Pliskin, it discusses
that it _is_ Loshon Hara (evil speech) to discuss a person's past. For
example you also can not reveal that a person is a ba'al tshuva. Even
if it may be "known" by most people, and "objectively" seems not to be
derogatory at all, you should not bring it up. This revealed
information could be very hurtful.
Laurie Cohen
(<0002557272@...>)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: <mweiner@...> (Merril Weiner)
Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 09:57:30 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Vegetarian food / Kashrut
The London Beth Din publishes the "Really Jewish Food Guide".
The publisher is the United Synagogue Publications and is endorsed
by the Chief Rabbi of England, Jonathon Sacks. You can obtain this
booklet by writing to:
Kashrut Division
Adler House
Tavistock Square, London WC1H OEZ
In 1992, this booklet cost 4 pounds.
Do you want to borrow this from me on Wednesday, Andrew?
Menachem Weiner
<mweiner@...>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
End of Volume 19 Issue 70
