Volume 21 Number 10
Produced: Fri Aug 18 0:01:48 1995
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
E-mail and FAX on Shabbat
[David Charlap]
Fax on Shabbat (2)
[Gary Kaufman, Howard Herskine]
Faxes Recieved on Shabbos
[Jan David Meisler]
Mail on Sabbath (3)
[Carl Sherer, "Robert A. Book", Carl Sherer]
Messages Posted on Shabbos
[Jonathan Katz]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: <david@...> (David Charlap)
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 95 11:03:03 EDT
Subject: Re: E-mail and FAX on Shabbat
This thread has been discussed a bit recently on the m-debate mailing
list. While we reached no conclusion (the thread stopped too soon),
someone mentioned that a gadol (he said it was the Ran, but this sounds
rather implausible, since he lived before electricity, telephones and
fax machines) forbade using a FAX to send a message from a place where
it is not Shabbat to a place where it is, regardless of whether a person
will read the message, and regardless of even whether the FAX is on!
The argument was that by placing such a FAX or phone call, you're
causing melacha to be done where it is shabbat (you cause electricity to
run and motors to go, etc at the destination). This is not like a timer
because there's no delay in the action to the reaction.
Personally, I find the argument and conclusion hard to believe, but that
was what was posted to m-debate. If someone here has the actual source
for this interesting psak, I'd be very interested to see it.
WRT the e-mail debate, you can't rely on the date on any message to know
when it was sent. Depending on many different factors, the date can be
inaccurate by days. It usually has the date/time that the sender's
computer got around to transmitting it, not the date/time that the
message was written. So if you send the mail on Thursday, but your
internet connection was down, and the network got repaired on Shabbat,
the computer would send the message on Shabbat and it would be
date-stamped with a "Saturday" date.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Gary Kaufman <kaufman@...>
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 21:55:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Fax on Shabbat
With regard to whether or not a "fax" that was received on Shabbos may
be read, I believe that their exists many problems that must be
addresses:
1: Is a Fax like mail ? Mail can not be handled or read.
2: Is the Fax itself business related ? If so it can not be read on
Shabbos.
3: If you knowingly leave the Fax machine on, and it is common
knowledge, and another Jew who is not observant sends you a fax on
Shabbos there is a multitude of shailos that come up. (Lifnay E'ver,
etc.)
In my opinion, a fax that is received on Shabbos can not be read. This
opinion is based on the Shailos and Tsuvahs of Ha Rav Feinsten ztl. and
the Debrinciner Rov, Ha Rav Moshe Stern.
Gedaliah Kaufman <kaufman@...>
U.S.A.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Howard Herskine <Howard.Herskine@...>
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 95 14:10:38
Subject: Fax on Shabbat
In the Vol. 21 #02 Digest Joseph Steinberg (Re:Fax on Shabbat) writes
"I do not know, however, if the recipient is allowed to read the FAX on
Shabbat or not. (In my case it was a non-issue, the people in Israel
were not Shomrei Shabbat.)"
In my understanding, whether the recipients were Shomrei Shabbat or not,
there is still the issue of "Lifnei Ivver" to be considered. ie the
prohibition against placing a potential stumbling block in front of
someone who is unaware of it.
Regards,
<Howard.Herskine@...>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jan David Meisler <jm8o+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 22:27:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Faxes Recieved on Shabbos
Ari Belenkiy brought the Gemara at the beginning of Beitzah to discuss
the issue of receiving a fax on Shabbos. The gemara (according to Beit
Hillel) forbids eating a "new-born egg". Therefore, it should be
forbidden to touch a fax that was received on Shabbos. Mr. Belenkiy
also mentioned that the gemara was discussing if the egg was muktzah or
nolad.
I think the mishnah in question, the first one of Beitzah on page 2a
might be misunderstood. The mishnah says that an egg born on a holiday
may not be eaten according to Beit Hillel (Beit Shammai permits it).
The gemara wants to know what the argument is. In the discussion to
determine this, the gemara determines that it is not because of nolad
(nolad and muktzeh are two different things).
The first answer, according to Rabbah, is that the mishnah is speaking
about a holiday that fell on Sunday. The egg is forbidden because it
was prepared (hachanah) on Shabbos. According to the gemara an egg is
completed 24 hours before it is laid. This completion is considered a
preparation on Shabbos for yuntif which is forbidden. We then forbid an
egg born on any shabbos or yuntif because of this "specialized" case.
This idea of hachanah would not apply to the fax (I would think).
(Rabbah is brought on page 2b)
The second explanation of the mishnah, according to Rav Yosef (page 2b)
is a gzeirah (decree) because of fruit that falls off a tree. This is
talking about a case where fruit falls from a tree on yuntif. We can't
pick it up and eat it because we might then come to pick a piece of
fruit off the tree (which is forbidden) and eat it. The egg is included
in this gzeirah.
The third explanation according to Rav Yitzchak is a gzeirah because of
juice that oozed out of fruit on yuntif. This juice is forbidden to
drink because we might squeeze the fruit to get juice which is
forbidden. (This discussion is on page 3a.) I think neither of these
two explanations apply to the fax. The gemara asks why Rav Yosef didn't
say like Rav Yitzchak and vice versa. Rav Yosef didn't say like Rav
Yitzchak because the egg and the fruid are food unlike the juice (and
the fax paper), this excluding the fax paper. Rav Yitzchak didn't say
like Rav Yosef because the egg is initially "swallowed up" by the
chicken and the juice is "swallowed up" by the fruit unlike the fruit on
the tree (and the fax paper which is open), thus excluding the fax paper
(this assumes the fax paper is not in an enclosed bin, if it were, we
still might have a question).
Thus, I don't think the Gemara in Beitzah presents a reason to forbid
the fax received on Shabbos. I don't mean to suggest that I think the
fax is permitted or forbidden on Shabbos, just that this gemara doesn't
seem to be an argument for or against it.
Yochanan
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: <adina@...> (Carl Sherer)
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 95 22:43:25 IDT
Subject: Mail on Sabbath
Another poster writes:
> seems like the fax arriving on Shabbat is like a postcard arriving in
> the mail on Shabbat (in the U.S., which has Saturday mail delivery,
> where you don't have to worry about whether the mail carrier is Jewish).
> Why should a postcard be mukzteh?
Actually I don't think this is so simple. In Shmiras Shabbos KeHilchasa
Chapter 31, Paragraphs 20-24, Rav Noivert shlita discusses mail (and
newspapers) which arrive on Shabbos in Chutz Laaretz. He states that
even when mail is delivered by a non-Jew, it is permitted to have him
put it on the table, however it is prohibited to take it from his hand
(Par.21). He allows reading letters which have not been read yet, even
if they arrived on Shabbos (Par.22 and Chapter 29, Paragraph 45) but not
if they are business-related. He allows reading a newspaper which is
delivered on Shabbos in certain cirumstances (if most of those in the
city receiving the paper are non-Jews and if it was not brought to your
house by way of an area without an eruv (special Shabbos boundary)
Par.24), but in any event he does not permit reading the business
section, and he suggests that one should minimize reading of newspapers
on Shabbos. Thus if the fax or postcard is business-related it could
not be read on Shabbos. I would add that obviously if one knows his
mail carrier is Jewish, all bets are off.
-- Carl Sherer
Adina and Carl Sherer
You can reach us both at:
<adina@...>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Robert A. Book" <rbook@...>
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 15:40:22 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Mail on Sabbath
> In Shmiras Shabbos KeHilchasa
> Chapter 31, Paragraphs 20-24, Rav Noivert shlita discusses mail (and
> newspapers) which arrive on Shabbos in Chutz Laaretz.
[...]
> He allows reading letters which have not been read yet, even
> if they arrived on Shabbos (Par.22 and Chapter 29, Paragraph 45) but not
> if they are business-related.
I was implicitly assuming that the *content* of the fax was not
business-related. If it content is business-related, I don't see why it
matters whether it (fax, postcard, newspaper, whatever) arrived on
Shabbos; it would be prohibited to read it even if it arrived before
Shabbos. I think that whether it is permitted to read it depends on the
content rather than the means or time of conveyance, provided another
Jew didn't violate Shabbos in the conveyance.
--Robert Book <rbook@...>
University of Chicago
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: <adina@...> (Carl Sherer)
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 95 22:27:10 IDT
Subject: Re: Mail on Sabbath
Another poster writes:
> I was implicitly assuming that the *content* of the fax was not
> business-related. If it content is business-related, I don't see why
> it matters whether it (fax, postcard, newspaper, whatever) arrived on
> Shabbos; it would be prohibited to read it even if it arrived before
> Shabbos. I think that whether it is permitted to read it depends on
> the content rather than the means or time of conveyance, provided
> another Jew didn't violate Shabbos in the conveyance.
Actually it's not so simple. The Shulchan Aruch in Orach Chayim 307,
13-14 states:
13. Simpletons' documents which are noted of debts, accounts and letters
of greeting may not be read [apparently aloud - CS] and even to study
them without reading is prohibited.
14. To read a letter which was sent to him when he doesn't know what is
written in it is permitted, but he should not read it with his mouth,
but study it, and if it was brought for him from outside the tchum
[boundary of where one is permitted to walk on Shabbos - CS] it is best
to be careful not to touch it. (Translation mine - CS)
The Mishna Brura at note 54 states that the reason why a letter is
different from a "simpletons' document" is that it might have something
in it which is necessary for his health and whereas the simpletons'
documents are generally related to money, although he also notes that
some would even allow simpletons' documents to be read.
In note 55 he adds that the only reason the letter might be considered
muktza (forbidden to be touched on Shabbos) is because it was brought
from outside the tchum, otherwise it could in fact be used to cover
jars. Here, however it is permitted to hint to the non-Jew[ish letter
carrier] to open the letter for him because there is no way he can
predict when his mail will come, and therefore we do not worry that he
will come to ask the letter carrier to bring mail on Shabbos. However
in the Biur Halacha he brings the Gra who was lenient as to touching the
letter, but was stricter about studying and reading the letter. The
Biur Halacha concludes by saying that one should be strict about reading
and studying a letter if it was brought for him but that one may be
lenient regarding touching. My recollection of the way the mail
generally works in the States is that the mail would usually be in the
Post Office by the close of business on Friday and would be sorted for
delivery Saturday morning. If this is the case I do not think that tchum
would be a problem except maybe in the winter and in rural areas.
I would note that the Mishna Brura does not discuss the case of a letter
which arrived on Friday which has not yet been read, and I think there's
at least room to argue (IMHO) that he would permit reading such letters
on Shabbos so long as they are not simpletons' documents (i.e. related
to money).
Shmiras Shabbos Kehilchasa Chapter 29, Paragraph 45 clearly states that
only divrei Torah (words of Torah) which arrive before Shabbos may be
read on Shabbos. Any other letter may be read on Shabbos only if it
arrived on Shabbos (by a non-Jew).
-- Carl Sherer
Adina and Carl Sherer
You can reach us both at:
<adina@...>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jonathan Katz <jkatz@...>
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 95 10:47:58 +0300
Subject: Messages Posted on Shabbos
Jeanette Friedman writes:
>To me, the questioners reek of the need for an additional "geder" to
>separate themselves from those Jews...
I feel that your diatribe in mail-jewish [v21n2] against those who would
choose to avoid reading posts written on Shabbos was entirely uncalled
for and unwarranted.
The fact is, NOBODY said anything about "separating" themselves from
those who post on Shabbos or "excluding" them; NO ONE said anything
about these people "[not being] quite good enough..."; NOBODY mentioned
"promotion of hatred" against these people.
There is a world of difference between saying "that Jew is doing
something wrong, and therefore I don't want to take a part in it" (the
idea expressed by others on the list) and saying "that Jew is doing
something wrong and therefore I never want to associate with him" (the
idea that you accused others of having).
Also, there is a question of what the halacha is: may one read a post
sent on Shabbos or not? If the halacha says that one may not read such a
post (and I'm not sure that it does), then it is irrelevant whether this
will "offend" other people. Yes, you might want to be careful about
bringing up the subject and you probably wouldn't want to publicize your
view to the world, but the halacha is the halacha. Furthermore, even if
it does end up offending somebody, that is NOT equivalent to
"exclusion", "separation", and "sinas chinom".
Please reconsider your viewpoint and your overly harsh words.
[Similar posting submitted by Joe Goldstein <vip0280@...>
Mod.]
Jonathan Katz
<jkatz@...>
http://chemphys.weizmann.ac.il/~jkatz/home.html
http://www.mit.edu:8001/people/frisch1/home.html
home phone: 342-996, room 8
----------------------------------------------------------------------
End of Volume 21 Issue 10