Volume 23 Number 44
Produced: Sat Mar 16 22:23:53 1996
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
40 Years
[Israel Rosenfeld]
Baruch Dayan Emet
[Dr. Jeremy Schiff]
Ger (Stranger/Convert) (2)
[Hillel E. Markowitz, Claire Austin]
Information regarding abuse and domestic violence
[Jeanette Friedman]
Kiddush Made by a Non Frum Person
[Ilya E Gurevich]
Spousal Abuse
[Anonymous(1)]
Takanos and Bal Tosif
[Micha Berger]
Tsadikim
[Edwin R Frankel]
Tznius re: Slits in Skirts
[Tehilla Weinberg]
UK PNA & Kosher providers on Brijnet web
[Rafael Salasnik]
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From: <iir@...> (Israel Rosenfeld)
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 96 14:39 +0200
Subject: 40 Years
>From: Yosey Goldstein <JOE-G@...>
>A poster mentioned that Moshe's life was divided into 3 eras of 40 years
>each, as was Rebbi Akiva's life. There is a Yalkut Shimoni that lists
>and groups several people and their ages. Under the 120 year category in
>addition to Moshe Rabbenu and Rebbi Akiva is Rabban Yochonon Ben Zakkai.
>We know from the Gemmorah that his life is also split up into 40's. If I
>remember correctly the three 40's are: 40 learning 40 Teaching and 40
>where he make Takkanos.
I quote: Bavli Rosh Hashana 31b -
Tanya: Rabban Yochonon Ben Zakkai lived 120 years.
40 in business, 40 he learned, 40 he taught.
>If someone remembers the source please check and
>verify that I am correct. (Sorry I do not own a CD-Rom)
Yosey, may I respectfully suggest that you download Shas from
http://www.jer1.co.il/gate/ftp/dostora.html
There you will find Ezer Yocheved's search software + shas(B+Y),
Rambam, Nach, Mishna, Tosefta.
Kosher and Happy peasach.
Yisrael
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From: <schiff@...> (Dr. Jeremy Schiff)
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 20:06:11 +0300
Subject: Baruch Dayan Emet
Condolences to our friend Aryeh Frimer on the loss of his mother, Esther
Miriam Frimer.
The family is sitting shiva in Maaleh Adumim.
[If anyone from the list is going, please convey my wishes of
condolences to the family from myself and the mail-jewish family. Avi
Feldblum - Mod.]
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From: Hillel E. Markowitz <hem@...>
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 22:33:06 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Ger (Stranger/Convert)
On Wed, 13 Mar 1996 <czca@...> wrote:
> >On Sun, 10 Mar 1996, "Hillel E. Markowitz" <hem@...> wrote in
> response to my question in m.-j. Vol. 23(35):
> >> ...Ye shall not eat of any thing that dieth of itself; thou
> >> mayest give it unto the convert that is within thy gates that he
> >> may eat it.
> >Logically the term "ger" must mean a nonJewish stranger in this pasuk in
> >the same way that we were "gerim" in Egypt. A "convert" is only allowed
> >to eat kosher meat and could not eat teraifah.
>
> This was not my question. Obviously this is not how "ger" is to be
> translated in this pasuk. That was my point. My question was, why is this
> not so obvious in the first pasuk which I cited from parasha Yitro:
> ... do not do anything that constitutes work, you, your son, your
> daughter, your slave, your maidservant, your animal and your convert
> within your gates ...
>
> Most translations render "ger" in this context as stranger, not
> convert, and I think that this would be correct. The reason that I
> brought it
I would also have said that "ger" in this sense would be stranger but I
can also see how it can be "convert" as well. As stranger, it would be
do not have anyone do work for you even though it is mutar for them to do
it for themselves. However, to make an analogy to son, daughter, etc, it
might be do not force anyone to be mechalel shabbos even if they are
under your "control".
| Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz | Im ain ani li, mi li? |
| <H.E.Markowitz@...> | V'ahavta L'raiecha kamocha |
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: <czca@...> (Claire Austin)
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 96 15:31:15 -0500
Subject: Ger (Stranger/Convert)
>On Sun, 10 Mar 1996, "Hillel E. Markowitz" <hem@...> wrote in
response to my question in m.-j. Vol. 23(35):
>> ...Ye shall not eat of any thing that dieth of itself; thou
>> mayest give it unto the convert that is within thy gates that he
>> may eat it.
>Logically the term "ger" must mean a nonJewish stranger in this pasuk in
>the same way that we were "gerim" in Egypt. A "convert" is only allowed
>to eat kosher meat and could not eat teraifah.
This was not my question. Obviously this is not how "ger" is to be
translated in this pasuk. That was my point. My question was, why is this
not so obvious in the first pasuk which I cited from parasha Yitro:
... do not do anything that constitutes work, you, your son, your
daughter, your slave, your maidservant, your animal and your convert
within your gates ...
Most translations render "ger" in this context as stranger, not
convert, and I think that this would be correct. The reason that I
brought it up was that I find the translation "convert" here to be
profoundly offensive. Rambam goes to great lengths, in a letter to
Obadiah, to explain that there is no difference between a born Jew and a
convert and he quotes Isaiah 56:3 (Neither let the son of the stranger,
that has joined himself to the Lord, speak, saying, "The Lord has
utterly separated me from His people."). It seems to me that G-d is
speaking to all Jews (men, women and converts equally) and singles out,
in addition, those over whom a Jew might exercise some power or
influence (children, servants, slaves, foreigners or stangers, and
animals).
Since sending my original post, I looked up the translation
given in the Art Scroll Chumash and it was also translated as "convert."
Art Scroll makes this same error in Parasha Bo (Shemos 12:38) in the
translation of Rashi. Rashi, commenting on the eriv rav (mixed
multitude) refers to them as "shel gerim" and Art Scroll translates this
as "who were converts." If this is not an error what can possibly be
the motive for translating it thus? This latter example was, in fact,
the first time that I had come across this and it was brought to me be
my daughter who was attending a jewish day school. She had learned, from
the Rabbi teaching "parasha" that the eiriv rav, or the mixed multitude,
were converts and that they were the people who were complaining and
rebelling, etc. as we read in the Torah following the departure from
Mitrayim. In both instances, I cannot understand how such a translation
can be justified and, I repeat, I find it not only incorrect but deeply
offensive.
Claire Austin
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From: <FriedmanJ@...> (Jeanette Friedman)
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 00:26:35 -0500
Subject: Information regarding abuse and domestic violence
For those who are looking for information, help lines, phone numbers,
shelters and resources to help Jewish families trapped in situations
with abuse and domestic violence, please check out the website I am
maintaining with data garnered from these boards, Jewish agencies, state
agencies and federal agencies.
Every so often I add to the material already there.
The site also includes Rabbi Riskin's psak on gittin and his prenup,
which he said anyone could download.
There are also past newspaper articles there.
Anyone wishing to submit material for this site can e-mail me at
<jeanette@...>
The website is at http://lifestylesmag.com/jew-family.
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From: Ilya E Gurevich <gurevich+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 13:19:17 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Kiddush Made by a Non Frum Person
Hi. I would like to know what's the halacha if a non-religious Jew makes
kiddush on Shabbos are you aloud to be yotzeh or not?
Ilya Gurevich
5824 Bartlett st. apt.2, Pittsburgh PA 15217
412-421-6614
e-mail gurevich+@andrew.cmu.edu
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Anonymous(1)
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 23:24:08 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Spousal Abuse
Anonymous(1) responding to Anonymous (2)
[Well really anon(2) responding to anon(3). Mod.]
A few KIND words for the other anonymous poster.
> While we all sympathize and empathize with the woman undergoing a
> divorce for abuse, and are shocked by the Bais Din involved barring her
> from revealing her IY"H soon to be ex-husband's identity, so long as we
> do not know for sure that this Bais Din consists of chauvinistic
> mysoginist old-world Rabbis, we may be dan them l'kaf zchus (judge them
> favorably):
The point of my posting was not to bash the Rabbis as a whole or even
the particular Bais Din that I am dealing with. I simply wanted people
aware of the fact that abuse exits in OUR communities and that they
should not ignore it. I wanted people to know that trying to help is
not out of place in such situations.
> b) They may feel that so long as it is "her" word against "his", there
> is insufficient evidence to, in essence, destroy his future life.
It is in my interest for him to remarry (as bad as that sounds) he will
then leave me alone. It takes two to destroy a marriage ( I have my
share of the blame) and maybe with a better suited wife...
>Not all Rabbis are contemptible and condemnable, certainly without a
>little thought.
You are 120% correct. This was not at all my point. All of the Rabbis
that I dealt with meant well, they just did not know how to help. That
goes for many of my friends and family members. I am NOT trying to
condemn the Rabbis or anyone else. The purpose of my posting was to open
a few eyes. I hope that any offended Rabbi accepts my apology as I did
not mean for them to be the focus of my posting.
Anonymous
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Micha Berger <aishdas@...>
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 08:28:54 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Takanos and Bal Tosif
(The title translates to: Rabbinical legislation and the prohibition against
adding to the Torah.)
The Rambam (Hilchos Mamarim, Ch 2) lays out his definition of what is
included in the prohibition against adding to the Torah. He writes that
diRabbanan's (Rabbinic laws) are only permissable if you make it clear
that it is diRabbanan. If you claim that the issur is from the Torah,
you violated the prohibition of "bal tosif".
Seems to me that we should be very careful when discussing halachah, to
make this distinction clear. To confuse violating a gezeirah (a fence
around the prohibition) and violating the actual prohibition, is itself
prohibited by the Torah -- as much as the prohibition you are studying!
I find, therefor, some things odd. For example, we find the Gemara in a
number of places calls a diRabbanan "halachah liMoshe miSinai".
(Unfortunately, none come to mind as I type. The brain doesn't work well
when sleep deprived. Ba Shabbos ba Menuchah [When Shabbos comes, rest
comes].) This is taken to mean that we are as sure of this din (law) as
we are of those given to Moses at Sinai. Literally, though, it is
counting the law as one that was given at Sinai.
Shouldn't the language be avoided, as it gives an appearance of bal
tosif? Wouldn't you want to avoid misleading anyone, and bringing them
to violation?
Two, and more bothersome: Why doesn't the Shulchan Aruch or the Mishnah
Brurah constently label each siman (paragraph) as either diOraisah (from
the Torah) or diRabbanan?
In the past two centuries it has become even more bothersome. The Kitzur
Shulchan Aruch doesn't even distinguish between minhag (custom) and din.
Same for most shu"t (responsa)?
Am I missing something? Does the world inteprest bal tosif differently
than the Rambam? If so, how are diRabbanan's excluded from the
prohibition?
Micha Berger 201 916-0287 Help free Ron Arad, held by Syria 3255 days!
<AishDas@...> (16-Oct-86 - 5-Oct-95)
<a href=news:alt.religion.aishdas>Orthodox Judaism: Torah, Avodah, Chessed</a>
<a href=http://haven.ios.com/~aishdas>AishDas Society's Home Page</a>
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From: <frankele@...> (Edwin R Frankel)
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 16:39:16 -0700
Subject: Tsadikim
>Since few of those on this list are likely to be tzaddikim or prophets,
>we usually cannot see how each of the infinity of our live's small
>choices ultimately affect our core beliefs.
Speak for yourself. I am sure there are not many tsadikim gmurim, but from
what I remember of my study of Mishneh Torah, a tsadik is one who has more
mitzvos than chataim. I believe most Jews fit into this characterization,
and that is why in Perek Hachelek we learn "kol Yisroel yesh lahem chalek
b'olam haba."
Shabbat Shalom
Ed Frankel
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From: Tehilla Weinberg <tehilla.weinberg@...>
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 12:14:07 -0500
Subject: Tznius re: Slits in Skirts
Is anyone familiar with a Halchic source(s) discussing the possible
prohibition of wearing slits in skirts (even if the slit is below the
knee)? I am wondering if this is a Halachic concept, a Geder to avoid
transgressing other prohibitions, or a Chumra that some have accepted
upon themselves. Is there something fundamentally wrong with wearing a
slit (or is it OK if it only exposes the leg below the knee)? Any
information would be EXTREMELY appreciated.
Thanks,
Tehilla Weinberg
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From: Rafael Salasnik <rafi@...>
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 10:12:37 +0000
Subject: UK PNA & Kosher providers on Brijnet web
1) UK - PNA NOW AVAILABLE ONLINE
A few months ago we informed you that the Chief Rabbi and various Botei
Din in the UK were about to announce a Pre-Nuptial Agreement to be
signed by couples before marrying, therby helping to alleviate the
problem faced by those whose ex-partners refuse a get.
A number of you wrote asking to see the text. Due to some delays in
agreeing the precise wording and also office moves by the Chief Rabbi's
Office etc, the text has only just been released. We have got a copy
(one of the first out !) and have put it up on our gopher/web site for
international on-line access.
There are two versions available: one with the Arbitration Clause and
the other with the Opt-Out Clause. Both texts are available in full on
Brijnet's web/gopher site.
The addresses are:
http://shamash.nysernet/org/ejin/brijnet then click on 'Pre-Nuptial
Agreement' gopher://shamash.nysernet.org:70/00/ejin/brijnet/cro/pna
2. KASHRUT INFORMATION
The Kashrus Division of the London Beth Din has provided Brijnet with
the latest lists of delis, restaurants, hotels and caterers (correct as
at 12 March) that are under their supervision. You'll find it at our web
site: http://shamash.nysernet.org/ejin/brijnet/
Rafi
<rafi@...>
BRIJNET
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End of Volume 23 Issue 44
