Volume 24 Number 24
Produced: Fri May 31 19:13:30 1996
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Converts and Parents
[Laurie C. Smith]
Converts and their families of origin...
[Anonymous]
Jewish converts (3)
[Tara Cazaubon, Mark Bells, Barak Greenfield]
Jewish Converts
[Robert A. Book]
Shaking Hands
[Moishe Kimelman]
Shaking Hands with Women
[<Krukshank@...>]
When Asked About a Person of Marriagable Age
[Zvi Weiss]
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From: <lcsmith@...> (Laurie C. Smith)
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 09:25:11 -0400
Subject: Converts and Parents
>I have heard from several people that after a person converts to Judaism
>they are not supposed to have any more contact with their non-Jewish
>families. I'm wondering if this is true since one the Ten Commandments
>states "honor thy father and thy mother."
You are absolutely correct. I am a convert myself and was told that I
MUST maintain good relations with my family, even to the point of
visiting my family during their holidays and attending my brother's
wedding which will be held in a church and on Shabbos. (I can't violate
Shabbos, of course) This was based on a psak given to me by a well known
posek. My responsibility to the mitzvah of kibbud av v'eim is the same
as everyone else's providing that I don't violate any halachos. Baruch
Hashem, my relationship with my family is very good and I intend to keep
it that way. A good posek will work hard to help keep positive family
relations.
Since every situation is different, a convert should consult their LOR
whenever there is a question. I assumed that I would NOT be able to
attend my brother's wedding and was pleasantly surprised when I was told
that I can and should go. It pays to ask, since there are heterim for
converts that do not apply to anyone else.
This mitzvah is especially relevant now with my upcoming wedding in
September. It is a challenge to have a kosher wedding that makes my
gentile family feel included. (FYI - My choson is Rich Rosenberg of
Cleveland, Ohio)
Chaviva Smith
Laurie C. Smith
Assistant Director Office of Grants and Contracts,
The Ohio State University Research Foundation
1960 Kenny Road, Columbus, Ohio 43210
Phone: 614-688-4175
FAX: 614-292-4315
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From: Anonymous
Date: Thu, 30 May 96 00:42:06 EDT
Subject: Converts and their families of origin...
From: Freda B Birnbaum <fbb6@...>
In v24n13 Allie Berman asks:
> I have heard from several people that after a person converts to Judaism
> they are not supposed to have any more contact with their non-Jewish
> families. I'm wondering if this is true since one the Ten Commandments
> states "honor thy father and thy mother."
> I would very much like to know who the "several people" were -- were
> they poskim who were asked shailas? Knowledgeable rabbis or laymen? or
> people repeating bubbe-mayses? Slight apologies for the vehement tone,
> but I can't begin to tell you how much anguish this kind of attitude
> causes converts.
Not to mention their family! There are actually circumstances where a
family supports a convert in his/her choice of religion, and would feel
very hurt if cut off once the conversion took place. My own son was
under the sway of the "no contact" theory when he converted. However,
since he was still a minor, he "had" to bear with me, but it was
upsetting to him ("someone might find out"), and I was an even more open
source of embarassment to him than a mother is to any teenager.
For my family, it was an even more painful idea. That my aunts had to
accept that they could not kiss my son sounds trivial, but we are a
"Kissing" family. We won't go into how uncles and male cousins felt
about not being able to greet my daughter-in-law with the usual "family"
gesture.... needless to say, all complied with the request (which I
warned them about, before my son and daughter-in-law showed up at the
family reunion a few years ago). The "family" (especially such a
diverse family as mine is) were delighted to welcome my son and his
wife, on their terms.
I quite understand the need for discretion, and simply not bringing up
the issue of what religion your mother happens to belong to seems to be
sufficient. After that, it is a non-issue unless you make it one... you
(the convert) are Jewish, that's it.
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From: Tara Cazaubon <tarac@...>
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 08:41:57 -0700
Subject: Jewish converts
>From: <berman@...> (Allie Berman)
>I have heard from several people that after a person converts to Judaism
>they are not supposed to have any more contact with their non-Jewish
>families. I'm wondering if this is true since one the Ten Commandments
>states "honor thy father and thy mother."
This is false. While the convert may no longer eat at his parents house
or celebrate certain holidays (like Pesach) if accomodations can't be
made, Jewish converts are still obligated to honor their parents.
Tara Cazaubon
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From: idela!<markb@...> (Mark Bells)
Date: Tue, 28 May 96 09:39:15 PDT
Subject: Re: Jewish converts
Quoth <berman@...> (Allie Berman)
> I have heard from several people that after a person converts to Judaism
> they are not supposed to have any more contact with their non-Jewish
> families. I'm wondering if this is true since one the Ten Commandments
> states "honor thy father and thy mother."
All I can say is, when I converted, my Beit Din (Rabbinic court) asked
me in several ways how my family felt. They clearly wanted to ensure
that family contact would continue. I have not come across anything
since that would contradict this.
Best regards, Mark Bell Northridge, CA
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From: <DocBJG@...> (Barak Greenfield)
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 11:24:41 -0400
Subject: Jewish converts
Allie Berman asked:
> I have heard from several people that after a person converts to Judaism
> they are not supposed to have any more contact with their non-Jewish
> families. I'm wondering if this is true since one the Ten Commandments
> states "honor thy father and thy mother."
When someone converts to Judaism, he is considered to be, in many
respects, a new person. As such, his biological relatives are no longer
considered, halachically, to be related to him. Therefore, the fifth
commandment would not apply to them.
Technically, prohibitions against incest should also not apply, and in
theory, the convert whould be permitted to marry his (previous) sister,
for example. However, the Talmud prohibits this so that it should not
appear that he has converted from a stricter religion to a more lenient
one.
Barak Greenfield
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From: Robert A. Book <rbook@...>
Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 19:27:21 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Jewish Converts
Allie Berman (<berman@...>) writes:
> I have heard from several people that after a person converts to Judaism
> they are not supposed to have any more contact with their non-Jewish
> families. I'm wondering if this is true since one the Ten Commandments
> states "honor thy father and thy mother."
I know many (Orthodox) converts to Judaism, and they all have contact
with their families. There are many rabbonim who have paskened on
issues related to their contact, since there are some complicated issues
involved (especially regarding kashrut, attendance at celebrations of
non-Jewish holidays, etc.) and people reach different solutions based on
their own circumstances (usually/hopefully in consultation with an LOR
familiar with their situation).]
In a previous issue of MJ (check the archives) there was a discussion
about how to handle the presence of non-Jewish parents at the wedding of
the convert. (I think the parents walked down the aisle prior to the
convert.)
Technically, a convert is considered to have a new neshama (soul) and
thus technically has no blood relatives. So, d'oraisa, the commandment
of honoring parents does not apply. However, physically he/she does
have blood relatives, and d'rabannan, the commandment does apply. There
are different opinions on several subsidiary issues, for example whether
to sit shiva when the non-Jewish parent dies. One opinion I have heard
is that since shiva is to comfort the mourner, it is permitted, but
since the parent wasn't halachically the parent, it is not required. I
am sure this is not the only opinion on the issue.
--Robert Book <rbook@...>
University of Chicago
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From: Moishe Kimelman <kimel@...>
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 22:06:44 +1000
Subject: Shaking Hands
In # 15 there seems to be a consensus that if a woman profers her hand to be
shaken, a man may shake her hand for fear of embarassing the woman. A
number of writers even went so far as to imply that to reject the proferred
hand would be wrong, and cause a chillul Hashem.
I take issue with this on a number of points. Firstly, while I have
witnessed embarassment where a man has said something like, "I do not shake
hands with women," or the like, I believe this is mainly due to the sexist
overtones, i.e. the implication that a man may not shake a woman's hand, but
what the woman does is of no consequence. On the other hand, were the man
to say, "My religious beliefs do not allow physical contact between men and
women who are not close relatives," there should be no embarasment, as he is
explaining that the woman would-be/is also bound by this law if she were/is
Jewish. I have used this line often and I know that women accept it with
understanding, especially if they see that the man is a comitted Jew anyway,
e.g. he wears a kippah.
Secondly, I don't believe that chillul Hashem is relevant to the discussion.
If something is undesirable, then not doing it can only cause a kiddush
Hashem, and embarassment caused solely because of the non-performance of the
undesirable act is unfortunate but not a chillul Hashm.
Finally, I think that in reality the person who is most embarassed when a
woman offers her hand and it is ignored or rejected is the man who does not
shake it. In my experience the man often feels foolish for not responding
in the usual (goyish) way, and the woman at worst thinks that the man is a
weirdo. Rarely, if ever, is the woman embarassed - unless of course she is
Jewish and realizes that she is acting improperly. In that case the
embarassment is self-inflicted, constructive and possibly desirable.
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From: <Krukshank@...>
Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 19:43:22 -0400
Subject: Shaking Hands with Women
In a message dated 96-05-27 08:10:33 EDT, Steven Oppenheimer writes:
>He says he knows of rabbis who do not shake hands with women but if a
>woman were to extend her hand to them, they would shake her hand as to
>not embarrass her.
The Lubavitch rabbi in my town does this--he tries to discourage someone
extending their hand, but if they do, he shakes it.
On the other hand, he *does* run the mikvah ;)
B'shalom,
Jacob Lewis
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From: Zvi Weiss <weissz@...>
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 08:44:41 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: When Asked About a Person of Marriagable Age
> From: Chaim Shapiro <ucshapir@...>
> As I have expected for some time now, people have started asking
> me questions about my friends for shidduch purposes. What is the proper
> way to handle such questions halachicly? Should I be completly honest,
> describing as much as I know about the individual, including both good
> traits and bad traits? Perhaps I should only describe a person's good
> qualities while minimizing his faults, assuming that all information
> will eventually be discovered during the dating process. Another option
> is to describe a person's good qualities and only mention the negatives
> if asked about them specifically (for example not mention my friends
> temper problem unless specifically asked about his tempermant).
Not long ago, I received a brochure from the Chafetz Chaim Heritage
Foundation that directly focused upon this matter. The summary (as I
recall now) seemd as follows:
1. Information must be presented as OBJECTIVELY as possible. Just
because the one being asked does not like a "quiet person" does not mean
that the person asking will not like such a person (for example).
2. If the information is not based upon first hand knowledge, it should
not be provided OR (if there is no way to get first hand source for this
information and it is critical) then it must be made clear that the
information is only second hand and only being provided because the
responder HONESTLY thinks it important.
3. The one providing the information must be exceedingly careful that
NOTHING "color" his/her answer. If there is any
resentment/upset/whatever in the feelings of the responder, then the
responder must confront those feelings FIRST before any response can be
provided (even to the extent of admitting that s/he may be unable to
give an honest answer because of their own personal feelings).
4. OTOH, if there is critical information then the repsonder MUST
supply it. How many times have we seen/heard of instances where a
marriage fell apart or there was spousal abuse -- and this could have
been avoided except that nobody wanted to provide the critical
information because it was "Lashon Harah"??? This is simply incorrect
-- and the brochure referenced above made this ABSOLUTELY clear.
5. If one has not seen someone for a long time and the impressions are
likely to be "off", the respnder should explain that "up front" and
point out that any answers provided are likely to be INACCURATE due to
the passage of time and change of circumstance.
In general, I would urge that an attempt be made to contact the Chafetz
Chaim Heritage Foundation to obtain (1) this brochure and (b) to ask
questions directly. Apparently, this group has a staff of trained
Poskim specifically set up to answer queries relating to Lashon Harah.
I am pretty sure that they are listed in the NYC, Queens, or B'klyn
directory.
--Zvi
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End of Volume 24 Issue 24
