Volume 24 Number 72
Produced: Mon Aug 5 23:51:51 1996
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Socializing at Tashlich (3)
[Moshe Freedenberg, Micha Berger, Elie Rosenfeld]
Socializing Between the Sexes (2)
[Danny Schoemann, Joe Goldstein]
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From: Moshe Freedenberg <free@...>
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 10:27:26 +-300
Subject: Socializing at Tashlich
Janice Gelb stated:"The specific context for the socializing Gad mentioned
>above was at
>Tashlich. We are not talking here about young people going off together
>in private, but about them socializing together in a public place (and
>in the specific case of Tashlich, with many friends, relatives, and
>fellow congregants around them)...However, I would argue that a total
>separation between the sexes is not healthy either. If the only things
>young men hear about women are in regard to the laws about avoiding
>touching them, avoiding looking at them, and avoiding socializing with
>them, and if they never have the opportunity to socialize with them
>except when they are about to pick a spouse, the odds go up that they
>will regard women as foreign creatures whose main function and purpose >is
in a sexual or childbearing light. The more men are able to freely talk
>and joke with women in a normal context, the more they are likely to
>regard women as fully spectrumed individuals like themselves.
I must disagree with Janice here. Young men also have sisters, and they
certainly have all the opportunity that they need to talk freely with
them, tease them, annoy them, etc. and to know them as "fully spectrumed
individuals like themselves" without having to socialize with girls that
are not related to them. My eldest son is in yeshiva from 7 in the
morning until 9:30 at night, never even sees close up a girl that isn't
related to him (except at the Shabbos table) and has no problem
whatsoever relating to his sister as a person and I am pretty sure that
he will have no problem with a wife either. There are quite a few
secular men that have had plenty of "socialization" who think that women
are from another planet. Someone even wrote a book entitled "Men are
from Mars, women are from Venus." I somehow remain completely
unconvinced that the secular way of doing things is more healthy than
the Torah way. What if a boy only has brothers? He has cousins, aunts,
etc. and most importantly a mother. The biggest example that a boy has
of human relations is that of his father and mother, and a Torah home is
the best example that he could have to learn how to relate to a spouse.
---Rena Freedenberg
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From: <micha@...> (Micha Berger)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 11:59:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Socializing at Tashlich
As I see it, the problem is not with socializing, but with doing so at
tashlich. I don't think anyone on this list would construe the
requirement to have a mechitzah as one against socializing in general.
However, tephillah is not the appropriate time.
To quote Shlomo, "for everything there is a time and an appointment"
(How do you tanslate "eis / eit", so that it shows the difference in
conotation from "zman"? With all do appologies to the Byrds, the word
"season", at least as used today, doesn't seem to belong in the
translation.)
Tashlich is supposed to be a "bein adam Lamakom" (between G-d and man")
experience -- going down to the waterside, in the midst of nature, and
there, alone with G-d, deciding to abandon whatever sins pose a
challenge to you.
Micha Berger 201 916-0287 Help free Ron Arad, held by Syria 3512 days!
<micha@...> (16-Oct-86 - 9-Jul-96)
<a href=news:alt.religion.aishdas>Orthodox Judaism: Torah, Avodah, Chessed</a>
<a href=http://aishdas.org>AishDas Society's Home Page</a>
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From: <er@...> (Elie Rosenfeld)
Date: 18 Jul 1996 15:50 EDT
Subject: Socializing at Tashlich
In #65, Gad Frenkel responded to my original post on mixed socializing.
Janice Gelb has already posted a followup that matches my views on the
subject, but I'd like to respond to a few of Gad's specific points:
>I imagine that that that is not the goal of most of the adults who
>attend, the atmosphere is very often that of a street fair rather than
>any kind of spiritual soul searching experience.
We certainly, rightfully spend a lot of time having "soul-searching
experiences" on Rosh Hashanah. But we shouldn't forget that RH is a
_Yom Tov_ as well - a day of _joy_. We make kiddush, we eat festive
meals, we dip apples in honey! Friendly socializing is not out of tune
with the spirit of the day.
>First the statements regarding fringe or ultra positions. I'm not sure
>how the poster is defining the norm. Until the rise of so-called modern
>orthodoxy in America there was little socializing between non-family
>members of the opposite sex. Whatever one feels about this approach it
I don't know of any source for this, but even conceding the point: This
is three or more generations ago. In those days, "women's place was in
the home" and mixed socializing was much less frequent in society in
general. The point I made in my first post, not yet addressed in the
responses, is that this is no longer the case. Most frum men socialize
with _non-Jewish_ women in the workplace every day (and vice versa).
Should those men _davka_ avoid socializing with other frum women, when
they're already doing so with everyone else?
>Finally, is it so farfetched to say that on Rosh Hashonah, one might be
>wise to try a little harder to avoid situations that might lead to
>"licentiousness and Loshon Hora"?
It depends on your assumptions. Let me give two examples. Many people
have the minhag [custom] to eat only pas yisroel [bread baked by Jews]
between Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, although they eat regular bread
the rest of the year. Not that they think regular bread is truly
unkosher year round -- but they acknowledge that it's a "little bit
bad", that eating it relies on some level of kula [leniency]. So they
choose to be strict on it during this special period.
But take something like, say, wearing a knitted kipa. This is something
that much of the frum world avoids all year - yet those who do wear one,
do _not_ see doing so as a kula. They just don't believe that there's
any religious advantage to a black hat over a knitted kipa. And thus
there is no corresponding custom for men to become temporary "black
hatters" during the RH-YK period.
So as far as mixed socializing is concerned - it depends. If you believe
that it is inherently a good thing, there is no special reason to avoid
it on Rosh Hashanah (quite the contrary). If you believe otherwise, then
there _is_ a reason to be "strict" on RH. Again, it depends on one's
axioms - and perhaps the different sides in this discussion simply have
different axioms.
- Elie Rosenfeld
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From: Danny Schoemann <dannys@...>
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 09:05:51 +0300
Subject: Re: Socializing Between the Sexes
In mail-jewish Vol. 24 #67 Janice Gelb wrote:
> However, I would argue that a total separation
> between the sexes is not healthy either. If the only things young
> men hear about women are in regard to the laws about avoiding
> touching them, avoiding looking at them, and avoiding socializing
> with them, and if they never have the opportunity to socialize with
> them except when they are about to pick a spouse, the odds go up
> that they will regard women as foreign creatures whose main
> function and purpose is in a sexual or childbearing light. The more
> men are able to freely talk and joke with women in a normal
> context, the more they are likely to regard women as fully
> spectrumed individuals like themselves.
I'm afraid I don't agree with the above, based on personal experience. I
was brought up with a "girls-don't-exist-etc." attitude (though I do
have a mother and a sister) and never really had much to do with them
until I met my dear wife [the first shidduch I was suggested.].
Since then, I've joined the business world and I'm under the impression
that it's those people who are brought up to "freely talk and joke with
women in a normal context" seem to be the ones that consider women to be
"foreign creatures whose main function and purpose is in a sexual [or
childbearing] light".
On the other hand, in the Hareidi area where I live, and where everybody
was brought up with the "girls-don't-exist-etc." attitude, I find that
my neighbours "are likely to regard women as fully spectrumed
individuals like themselves."
To elaborate: When they talk to my wife, (and they do, suprisingly
enough, though never for "the fun of it") - it's as platonic as
possible. Not all all the way women are spoken to around the office, but
rather as "the husbands better half."
You also never hear any of the so-called jokes and insinuations that you
hear in the office about the fairer sex.
I could go on in the vein, but I think I've made my point.
Besides which, considering "the laws about avoiding touching them,
avoiding looking at them, and avoiding socializing with them" it seems
strange to suggest "the opportunity to socialize with them except when
they are about to pick a spouse" on a forum where the validity of
halacha is taken for granted.
-Danny
| | <DannyS@...> << Danny Schoemann >> | | Tower of
| | Ext 273 << Tel 972-2-793-723 >> | | Babel !!
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From: Joe Goldstein <JOE-G@...>
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 96 15:36:28 EDT
Subject: Socializing Between the Sexes
Janice Gelb wrote: " While this statement was made in the context of a
discussion on tashlich, I believe it is stated in a general enough way
that it can be used as a springboard for a larger issue. (I hope the
moderator agrees!)
The specific context for the socializing Gad mentioned above was at
Tashlich. We are not talking here about young people going off together
in private, but about them socializing together in a public place (and
in the specific case of Tashlich, with many friends, relatives, and
fellow congregants around them).
No one, I think, would argue for indiscriminate and licentious behavior
between the sexes. However, I would argue that a total separation
between the sexes is not healthy either. If the only things young men
hear about women are in regard to the laws about avoiding touching them,
avoiding looking at them, and avoiding socializing with them, and if
they never have the opportunity to socialize with them except when they
are about to pick a spouse, the odds go up that they will regard women
as foreign creatures whose main function and purpose is in a sexual or
childbearing light. The more men are able to freely talk and joke with
women in a normal context, the more they are likely to regard women as
fully spectrumed individuals like themselves."
I would like to take issue with Ms. Gelb's view of socializing between
the sexes. First of all Rosh Hashono is a time for spiritual
retrospection and repentance. I can remember from my days in Yeshiva,
that there were MANY bocurim that did not speak to anyone on Rosh
Hashono and Yom Kippur. I was told that in earlier times there were
Bochurim that refrained from speaking from the beginning of Ellul
through Yom Kippur. The Halacha says that the entire day of Rosh Hashono
should be used for Avodas Hashem, service of G-D. The Shulchan Aruch
says after eating the meal people should return to Shul to say Tehillim
until the time for Mincho. Tashlich, although it is said after Mincho is
still a prayer to Hashem to forgive our sins. As such it is a time to be
serious and act in the most proper way possible. We know the Halacha
says that during the days between Rosh Hashona and Yom Kippur one should
keep laws, such as not eating bread baked by a non-jew, that one does
not keep all year. The commentaries explain that we do not fool G-D by
keeping these stringencies during these days. Rather, we just
demonstrate to G-D that we truly desire to be the best we can be, even
though we can't do it year round. Keeping this thought in mind, Even if
there was nothing wrong with some socializing, Which I will address
later, is Rosh Hashona and Tashlich the time TO socialize? Is it proper
for boys and girls to walk out of Davening on Rosh Hashona to talk in
the hall? Tashlich is no different.
As far as socializing in general goes and Ms. Gelb's assertion that
this is healthier for boys. If boys would not socialize with girls they
would not be able to relate to girls and think of them only as sexual
object and to bear their children. I disagree totally. Traditional
Orthodox Judaism NEVER encouraged social mixing of the sexes. Boys and
girls always stayed seperated. Social dating was not the norm. After
attending yeshiva, or better yet *while* attending yeshiva, when a
yeshiva boy does start to date he does it with the intention of finding
a wife, a soul mate. NOT (Hopefully) a housekeeper and a lover! One does
not have to speak to a girl to respect her and to be able to develop a
relationship with her.
Statistically there are more divorce today than there were in past
generations. Why? Can it be that social interaction between the sexes
does not help cement the bonds between a man and his wife, rather by
opening the barriers and allowing and encouraging men to socialize with
women it opens the door to illicit relations? Or at the least it may
makesa person start to compare his/her spouse to someone else's. Does
this start thoughts that maybe I can do better?
As a married person I do socialize with other married couple's and,
yes I do talk to both spouses. (In fact I spend shabbosim in a Girl's
camp for the last 20 years, where I do speak to the staff members, where
I gave shiurim and yes I was even the camp driver!) So I do speak to
females and I still do not think that gratuitous social interaction is
spiritually healthy. To quote Pirkey Avos "Al Tarbeh Sicha im Hoisha" Do
not speak to much with women. Chazal saw the dangers in the interaction
and prohibited Yichud, being alone in the same room as a woman.
Seperation between the sexes in the Bais hamikdosh, where one would
assume nothing wrong would ever occur, was instituted and praised.
Practically, men DO speak to women. Men MUST treat women properly.
However, I can not believe that unless one socializes with girls prior
to getting married one will be unable to properly relate to one's spouse
or daughters after they get married.
Hatzlocha
Yosey
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End of Volume 24 Issue 72
