Volume 31 Number 48
Produced: Thu Feb 10 23:09:26 US/Eastern 2000
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Aliyah (2)
[Shoshana L. Boublil, Thierry Dana-Picard]
Sexual Harrassment Laws in Israel
[Shmuel Himelstein]
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From: Shoshana L. Boublil <toramada@...>
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 09:14:10 +0200
Subject: Re: Aliyah
I have heard of the greatness of our rabbis in Bavel who could "LeTaher
Et HaSheretz BeKUf Chaf Te'amim" -- or to declare the Sheretz (a
creepy-crawly that is _not_ kosher) Kosher -- using 120 reasons. The
following post is a great example of this:
> From: Russell Hendel <rhendel@...>
>
> Carls basic point about Aliyah was that parts of America (like the
> public schools) are 'spiritual deserts' and Israeli schools are not. I
> would like to bring in some (unpleasant) topics connected with the
> aliyah situation that have not yet been mentioned. I believe in certain
> areas America surpasses Israel in 'atmosphere'.
>
> Briefly I would posit that sexual harassment is much more common in
> Israel then it is in the US and this constitutes a legitimate reason
> (halachically and morally) for not going on Aliyah.
I just love it when people "posit" something that doesn't exist -- and
then ask you to prove it.
You can't prove a negative. I have lived here since 1968. I have
travelled all over the country, worked with many people and have never
experienced sexual harrassment of any kind. The only stories _I_ know
of have to do with non-religious women who send out mixed signals: on
one hand their clothing are extremely revealing and they like to flirt
-- on the other hand they take it amiss if someone thinks they want
something more than just to "play the game" of flirting. As this has
nothing to do with religious women of any kind -- it has nothing to do
with halachah or morality vis a vis women in general.
see below for more very important information:
> First let me mention that there was in fact an (embarassing) cover story
> on Times Magazine (in 1994?) that dealt with this topic.
And that's an impartial sources?!!
> a) TEENAGE YEARS: A former prime minister of Israel openly said that the
> army is "where people learn about sex."
Non-religious teenagers are sexually active. Same as non-jewish
teenagers are in the States. I think the start-up age is a few years
later than in the States, actually.
By the time non-religious get to the army they are knowledgeable and
experienced. They don't need the army for that!
> I know that Carl will probably
> tell me that religious girls are exempt from the army, but I don't want
> to emigrate to a country where all non-religious girls are subjected to
> a 'military' life. Furthermore, although people learn about sex in
> colleges the distinction is that the colleges do not have an enforcable
> environment. Whether we like it or not America has no forced military
> conscription while Israel does.
You are mixing up matters here. Conscription in a land in a state of
war, Milhemet Mitzva, is (according to many Gedolim) a Halachic
obligation: Chatan MeChadro Ve Kalah MeChupata (a groom from his room
and a bride from her Chuppa).
While a generation ago it was acceptable for army officers to go out
with female soldiers -- it is not acceptable AT ALL nowadays and just
like in all walks of life, if a woman doesn't want to have sex -- she
should say NO, and there are ways of preventing problems of harrassment
especially in the army today -- where they have cracked down on such
officers who are getting brig (prison) sentences + demotions and they
loose any chance of an army carreer.
> b) WORK PLACE: As indicated America has very strong harassment laws;
> CEOs and managers try and avoid lawsuits(this fact is not contradicted
> by American promiscuousness in the workplace--harassment is very
> distinct then promiscuousness). By contrast there is little legal
> protection in Israel (though some recent supreme court decisions may be
> changing that)
Israel has an even stronger anti harrassment law. It's based not on
just what a person does or says, but what his actions may imply. The
demand for proof is minimal, so women have recourse and the women
organizations will usually supply a free lawyer if she can't afford one.
> c) DIVORCE: The waiting, inefficiency of courts, & necessity to give up
> equitable shares of estates for a divorce are all public knowledge
No, once again you are mixing up matters that are totally irrelevant.
I've heard horror stories from the States of women left without a penny,
of courts deciding who will raise the children not on the welfare of the
child -- but on the financial capability of the parents.
In Israel, if the courts decide that the mother will raise the children
-- her financial situation is irrelevant and the husband is ordered to
supply the necessary funds.
I'm not saying that things are perfect. Divorce in any country in the
world is a war-zone with casualties on both sides. My husband is a
local rabbi and lawyer and an expert in Agunot (he wrote a book on both
court systems, for lay people). Many of the problems people encounter
have to do with how good the representing lawyer or To'ein Rabbani is
(just as this is true in the States) -- and not with the system.
So it is _NOT_ necessary to give up ones share of the estate to get a
divorce. It can happen that a man buys his divorce or a woman. Figures
show that the number of men/women in such situations Are The Same!!!
(just the women have a stronger lobby -- so their complaints are heard
and the men's are ignored). Many state that nowadays the women are far
more powerful in court than the men (the opposite of the above claim).
In Israel today, if a woman goes to the police and says that her husband
verbally abused her and hit her -- the police will usually evict the
husband from home immediately, even though there is no evidence, for a
few days "to calm things down". I would say women have the upper hand
here.
In any case -- this has nothing to do with sexual harrassment.
> d) EMIGREES: People still crack jokes about Russian emigrees asking
> where to find employment who are told to go to places where prostitutes
> hang out
And they crack jokes like that in the states too. And people worldwide
crack jokes on every single stereotype and race and nation there are.
This is proof of anything? (beyond tasteless jokes?)
> I would be happy to find out only 1 or 2 of these are still serious
> problems But they are problems and Israel has to offer a comparable work
> environment to those who want it. Saying that Bais Yaakov teachers have
> none of the above problems is avoiding issues. Religious girls have a
> right to be CEOs or computer scientists or whatever they
> want. Halachically, the right to a 'safe work place' is one of the 3
> permissabilities for leaving Israel.
I am a CEO of a company and I have religious friends (women) who are in
computers, science, CEOs etc. and they rarely have to put up with
harrassment (except for from some jerks, but actually the respect for
religious women is such that rarely do they suffer from sexual
harrassment).
As the whole issue is a red herring at best, and a Lashon HaRa (if not
worse) on Am Yisrael at worst -- saying that you can not make Aliyah b/c
of a non-existing issue is questionable. BTW, where does it say that a
"safe work place" is a reason to halachically leave Israel? last time I
checked you were allowed to leave if you couldn't find a job -- but if
you find yourself in a company of jerks -- you can find another job
(same as in the States, no better and no worse).
> Since I have a habit of being misunderstood let me make it explicitly
> clear that ALL I am saying is that in certain areas America is superior
> to Israel in atmosphere and the deficiencies in these areas halachically
> justifies not emigrating to Israel--that is ALL I am claiming.
Well, I wouldn't go out for a walk on any evening in New York after
sundown -- even in company of others. B"H I have little fear for my
daughters welfare when they go with their friends at night to study or
date. I remember when I was a teenager during the Yom Kippur War and we
came home from Bnei Akiva after sundown, and a member of the family from
the sTates was hysterical for fear of "how can you let her out after
dark!!".
I'll take Eretz Yisrael over the States any day. (BTW, I was back in
the States as a Shaliach in Northern California for a few years, and I
still prefer Israel as the best place in the world to raise kids).
Shoshana L. Boublil, Israel
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From: Thierry Dana-Picard <dana@...>
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 09:47:25 +0200 (IST)
Subject: Aliyah
On Vol. 31 #44, Russell Hendel wrote:
> a) TEENAGE YEARS: A former prime minister of Israel openly said that the
> army is "where people learn about sex." I know that Carl will probably
> tell me that religious girls are exempt from the army, but I don't want
> to emigrate to a country where all non-religious girls are subjected to
> a 'military' life. Furthermore, although people learn about sex in
> colleges the distinction is that the colleges do not have an enforcable
> environment. Whether we like it or not America has no forced military
> conscription while Israel does.
This is not true: A girl, either religious or not, can go to Sherut Leumi
and not to the army. The real problem is that there are people who pass
over this duty too.
Moreover, the question is not "to emigrate to a country", but to accept to
fulfill Gd's will. Israel is not "a" country but "Erets Hakodesh" (=The
Land of Sanctity).
>
> b) WORK PLACE: As indicated America has very strong harassment laws;
> CEOs and managers try and avoid lawsuits(this fact is not contradicted
> by American promiscuousness in the workplace--harassment is very
> distinct then promiscuousness). By contrast there is little legal
> protection in Israel (though some recent supreme court decisions may be
> changing that)
I'm not sure that this can be an argument against a positive mitsva: the
Gemara (Ketuvot 110) says that a Jew has to live in Israel, even in a
place where the majority are Goyim, and not in Hu"l, even in a place where
the majority are Jews. And nothing is said there at which level of
religious observance these Jews are supposed to be.
> c) DIVORCE: The waiting, inefficiency of courts, & necessity to give up
> equitable shares of estates for a divorce are all public knowledge
How can this cancel a mitsva de-oraita (from the Torah)? I don't
understand.
> d) EMIGREES: People still crack jokes about Russian emigrees asking
> where to find employment who are told to go to places where prostitutes
> hang out
Please have a look at the Bible (Ezra and Nehemia); the new immigrants
you mention seem to be "seyot temimot" when compared to those who
made aliyah from Bavel. Let's thank Hashem for having freed our brothers
and having made their coming here possible.
> Since I have a habit of being misunderstood let me make it explicitly
> clear that ALL I am saying is that in certain areas America is superior
> to Israel in atmosphere and the deficiencies in these areas halachically
> justifies not emigrating to Israel--that is ALL I am claiming.
>
'Hass veshalom!!!
Please have a look around: America is surely not the best example of moral
life,...
Anyway, the problem is not to compare, but accept with enough Emunah what
all the Torah, the Porphets, Haza"l say: there is no Tora like Torat Erets
Israel and here is the Land that Gd gave to the Jewish People.
Please, have a look at Ramba"n, positive mitsva 4.
And if there are some things that need improvement,
we definitely will not improve them by staying "al admat nekhar" (abroad).
Th. Dana-Picard, Dept of Applied Maths
JCT
Jerusalem
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From: Shmuel Himelstein <shmuelh@...>
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 09:11:58 +0200
Subject: Sexual Harrassment Laws in Israel
Russell Hendel claims: "there is little legal protection in Israel"
against sexual harrassment, that being one of his reasons for not making
Aliyah. In this claim, he is simply wrong. As Human Resources Manager of
my company in Israel, I keep myself up to date about such issues, so I
can assure Mr. Hendell that, as of about 18 months ago, Israel has had
he toughest sexual harrassment law in the world, bar none.
There crumbles one m ore reason for not making Aliyah.
With the permission of the moderator, I would like to repeat something I
sent in a few years ago, in the name of Rabbi Kook (the father):
He noted that when people are asked why they don't make Aliyah, they
have all types of Heshbonot (reasons). Some have a Heshbon that they
needd to wait for their kids to finish elementary school/high
school/college or get married. Others have a Heshbon that they have to
vest their pension. Still others have a Heshbon that (you fill in the
blank). Rav Kook noted that just before the Jews entered Eretz Yisrael
with Yehoshua, they were engaged in a battle with Melech Heshbon, the
King of Heshbon. Once one gets kills Melech Heshbon, it is remarkable
how easy Aliyah becomes.
Shmuel Himelstein
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End of Volume 31 Issue 48
