Mail.Jewish Mailing List
Volume 35 Number 100
Produced: Tue Mar 5 22:13:39 US/Eastern 2002
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Carrying in a block of apartments on Shabbat
[David Charlap]
Carrying on Shabbat
[Aharon A. Fischman]
Cheilek Elokah Mimaal
[David Riceman]
Date for Shabbat Bar Mitzveh (3)
[Perets Mett, Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz, Yisrael and Batya
Medad]
Free Will
[Stan Tenen]
Kaddish Custom
[Carl Singer]
Oat Matzah
[Janice Gelb]
OU Bacon??
[CARLSINGER@aol.com]
OU Bacon (2)
[Mimi Markofsky, Ira L. Jacobson]
Second Day Chag in Israel for visitors?
[Bernard Raab]
Shaloch Manos
[Yman866@aol.com]
Talit Katan is not an error in Hebrew
[Gilad J. Gevaryahu]
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From: David Charlap <shamino3@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 10:41:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Carrying in a block of apartments on Shabbat
ajp74@cam.ac.uk wrote:
> does anyone know if it is permitted to carry in a block of
> appartments if a kitchen is shared between residents, regarding food
> to and from the kitchen.
The prohibition of carrying on Shabbat is in carrying from one domain
(private or public) to another domain (private or public). Normally,
one's apartment would be private, and distinct from another's apartment,
thus prohibiting any carrying. And the corridors between apartments may
be considered a "carmelit" - a walled-in courtyard not owned by any
individual - where carrying would not be permitted.
However, I think the building walls may be considered an eruv, making
the entire building a single private space, if the circumstances are
appropriate.
If I remember correctly about how an eruv works, the wires on poles
serve to define a wall, and thus demarc the boundaries of the space.
But in order complete the conversion from public into private space, the
community must periodically share meals together within the eruv. If
everybody eats together in a common space within the eruv, then it can
be considered private space.
I would extrapolate from this that similar rules would apply within an
apartment block. The building walls suffice to demarc the boundaries
(akin to the wires and poles around the community.) If meals are also
shared by the tennants, then I would assume that the building's walls
could then be considered an eruv, and carrying between apartments would
be permitted.
But please keep in mind that the laws involving eruvs are numerous and
complicated. You really must consult your rav for a psak before you
actually take action in this circumstance.
-- David
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From: Aharon A. Fischman <afischman@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 06:59:35 -0500
Subject: Re: Carrying on Shabbat
ajp74@cam.ac.uk wrote:
>does anyone know if it is permitted to carry in a block of apartments
>if a kitchen is shared between residents, regarding food to and from the
>kitchen.
I am not a expert by any means, but isn't this an ideal set-up for an
'Eruvei Chatzerot'?
Aharon A. Fischman
afischman@att.net
www.alluregraphics.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: David Riceman <driceman@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 1956 14:06:47 +0000
Subject: Re: Cheilek Elokah Mimaal
This is discussed at length in Nishmath Shabthai HaLevi by R. Shabthai
HaLevi (you probably guessed that) Horowitz, author of Shefa Tal, and
cousin of the author of the Shlah.
David Riceman
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Perets Mett <p.mett@open.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 11:49:56 +0000
Subject: Re: Date for Shabbat Bar Mitzveh
Reuven Miller <millerr@mail.biu.ac.il> asked:
>Is there a minhag to make the shabbat Bar Mitzvah in shul on shabbat
>_before_ the boys 13th birthday rather than the shabbat after?
Yes, there certainly is such a minhog (akin to the Ashkenazi custom of
calling up a chosn to the Torah on the Shabos before the wedding) and it
is referred to in the classic work on krias hatorah "Shaarei Efraim",
Rabbi Ephraim Zalman Margulies of Brod.
As an interesting aside, a friend of mine made the barmitsva of his
eldest son on the Shabbos preceding the barmitsva . (The barmitsva boy
could not read the sedra, not yet being of age, but read maftir.) His
reason for doing so was that the barmitsva fell during the holiday
period, and by having the celebration on the previous Shabbos, most of
the friends would still be in town. When he decided on this arrangement
he apologized to is father-in-law for departing from the accepted
practice. "There is nothing to apologize for", his f-in-law said. "In
the Galitsyaner shtetl where I grew up, barmitsvas were celebrated
invariably on the preceding Shabbos."
Perets Mett
London
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz <sabbahem@bcpl.net>
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 12:49:18 -0500
Subject: RE: Date for Shabbat Bar Mitzveh
One can only answer "I have never heard of it" rather than a definite no
as there are many minhagim. Howevre, the logic of such a celebration
escapes me. The celebration is supposed to be the entry of the boy into
being a "mekabel ol mitzvos" (accepting the yoke of the Torah). That is
why many people have the custom to have the celebration on "bo bayom"
(the exact day).
Before the day, he is still not able to lead the prayres as a shaliach
tzibur or get an aliyah.
Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz - sabbahem@bcpl.net
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Yisrael and Batya Medad <ybmedad@netvision.net.il>
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 20:22:54 +0200
Subject: Date for Shabbat Bar Mitzveh
Regarding (my friend) Reuven Miller's question:
> Is there a minhag to make the shabbat Bar Mitzvah in shul on shabbat
> _before_ the boys 13th birthday rather than the shabbat after?
how could the boy be a Bar Mitzvah in schule if he's not 13? if in
schule, then he should be granted an Aliyah, no? there are some who
will have the party before the Shabbat but even then, usually the boy is
already 13 and has put on t'fillin.
I know there are some of us who just can't wait for a chance to partake
of a kiddush in schule, but isn't this "minhag", if it exists, rushing
things?
Yisrael Medad
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Stan Tenen <meru1@well.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 10:14:30 -0500
Subject: Free Will
The subject of Free Will and how a loving God can hold us responsible
for mistakes that God knows we will _inevitably_ make is extremely
important, and worthy of detailed discussion, which probably would be
too long to fit entirely on mail-jewish.
My research into the structure of B'reshit and the alphabet, and the
implications of these findings, bears on the topic. So too do some of
the more reasonable speculations that come from modern physics.
So, I'd like to suggest two things. For those who would like to have a
sense of what modern physics says about the nature of reality (that
bears on the issue of free will) I strongly recommend the recent and
relatively popular book by Brian Greene, called "The Elegant Universe."
This is an award-winning presentation that focuses, at least in part, on
the multiverse, or multiple-universes, or alternate-universes,
interpretation of quantum mechanical "weirdness". In my opinion, in
order to understand the arguments of our sages on the issue of free will
in modern terms, it's necessary to be aware of the arguments and
presentations in Greene's book. (Greene's and a few similar books are
mentioned in an eTORUS Newsletter, which can be found at
<http://www.meru.org/Newsletter/number11.html>. Full reviews of all
books mentioned can be found on www.amazon.com.)
Second, I'd like to suggest a discussion circle on this issue. If
anyone else would like to join in this discussion, if we can put a small
circle together, please get in touch with me directly.
Purim Sameach.
Best,
Stan
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: CARLSINGER@aol.com (Carl Singer)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 20:38:20 EST
Subject: Re: Kaddish Custom
> I never heard and never read that one ceases saying Kadish after 50 years.
I didn't catch the first note, but I know that in our shule (Ohr Torah)
we had a gentleman in his 80's whose Father died when he was 16 years old
-- so this man had said Kaddish for over 65 years.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Janice Gelb <j_gelb@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:36:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Oat Matzah
> [Availability of Oat Matzah is a yearly topic for this list, so if you
> have information or pointers to where to get wheat free matzot, please
> send them in, I'll collect and send out in a mailing in the next week or
> two (so enough time before Pesach to get). Mod.]
You can order gluten-free shmurah oat matzah at kosher.com:
http://www.kosher.com/FaxProducts.cfm?Sub_ID=8&Group_ID=21
Last year's kosherquest.com list of Pesach products provided
the following phone numbers:
For people allergic to wheat, Oat Shmura Matzo is available
by calling (908) 370-8460 or by Fax (908) 370-2997. To order
Spelt Matzo call (718) 599-5878.
I also found an article on "Surviving Pesach with Food
Allergies" at http://www.jewish-holiday.com/allergies.html
Interestingly, many non-Jewish celiac and gluten-free sites recommended
that people shop 'til they drop during Passover because of the
availability of some amount of gluten-free products that are otherwise
hard to get (such as soup mixes and salad dressing)!
--Janice
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: CARLSINGER@aol.com
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 20:51:22 EST
Subject: Re: OU Bacon??
This gets back to something that never seems to be clearly defined.
What is the halachic difference between botel b'sheshim which occurs
accidentally, vs. botel b'sheshim that occurs in purpose? I.e., what is
the difference between a drop of milk that splashes into a fleishig pot
of soup and a drop of milk that's purposely added to a pot of soup.
Kol Tov
Carl Singer
[I think that if I as a Jew purposely add a drop of milk into a fleishig
pot of soup, that is the halacha of ain mevatlin issur lechatchila,
i.e. botel b'sheshim does not occur when you do it on purpose to remove
the status of issur/prohibition (and I'm pretty sure that applies as
well to milk and meat where even though there is no issur status before
you begin, each by itself is permitted). The question, I think, is: What
is the status of a mixture that was created by non-Jew with intent to
create the mixture, but with no specific intent vis a vis any status of
issur, and that mixture is now before me. Mod.]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: AUNTIEFIFI@aol.com (Mimi Markofsky)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 23:44:10 EST
Subject: Re: OU Bacon
WRT the OU Bacon container for Maple syrup: I have looked at all the
different syrup containers on my shelf (I have 5 in different sizes) and
have not found that marking on any of them. It may be that the
manufacturer that supplies the containers also supplies those containers
to a processor of bacon products that is actually a larger account.
Many times, injected plastic food containers must be ordered in the
thousands which may not be economical for smaller businesses. Thus,
when they manufacture a "run" of the containers, they simply add on the
syrup company's order and sell them that way. Since it is embossed on
the bottom of the container, it may not be meant as a label as much as a
guide for employees of the larger company in filling it with their
product.
Mimi Markofsky
Auntiefifi@aol.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Ira L. Jacobson <laser@ieee.org>
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 15:13:00 +0200
Subject: Re: OU Bacon
Stan Tenen sent the following text in mail-jewish Vol. 35 #99 Digest:
>(It's fairly well-known that a minute amount of
>bacon fat is part of the maple-syrup-making process, and apparently
>always has been. Even though this is _deliberate_, the quantity is
>apparently so small that it still fits within OU guidelines for
>kosher
>food.)
There appears to be a serious misunderstanding here. Although a small
amount of milk, say, that accidentally falls into a meat pot can be
nullified if the proportions are correct, there is no allowance for any
forbidden ingredient to be added intentionally.
IRA L. JACOBSON
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Bernard Raab <beraab@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 15:03:00 -0500
Subject: Second Day Chag in Israel for visitors?
>From: Norm Broner <broner@netspace.net.au>
>I am interested in issue of keeping the second day, as per Chutz
>La'aretz, when visiting Israel over a Chag.
>
>I have been told that the Yavetz (Rav Yaakov Emden ztl) paskened that it
>is the "makom" that one goes after and therefore when visiting, one
>keeps one day only as permanent residents.
Actually, it was his father, the Chacham Tzvi, who paskened so, and his
son, R. Yaakov Emden, who objected. The fact that the father, who was
the Rav Ha'ir in Hamburg in the 19th century, failed to persuade his
well-regarded son on this issue worked against acceptance of his
p'sak. As a consequence, R. Emden has been influential in maintaining
the generally accepted rule over the years, i.e. that one "travels with
one's minhag". What is usually not recorded in description of this
history is that the son was estranged from the father (and apparently
many others) for many personal reasons which the world at large could
never be fully privy to! As I recall, there was a rather extensive
discussion of this issue of observance of Yom Tov Sheni in Israel in M-J
about a year ago. Take a look. Chag Purim sameach--BR
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Yman866@aol.com
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 15:11:32 EST
Subject: Shaloch Manos
Is there a mekor (source) for having to give two food items with
different brochos to fulfill your obligation of shalach manos? If so,
where?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Gevaryahu@aol.com (Gilad J. Gevaryahu)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:55:29 EST
Subject: Talit Katan is not an error in Hebrew
"Talit katan" is not an error in Hebrew as talit is a bi-gender and
therefore at times is treated as masculine. A source for the masculine
usage of talit is "shnei ravakim be-talit ECHAD," (Yerushalmi, Kidushin,
66b).
Gilad J. Gevaryahu
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