Volume 36 Number 92
Produced: Sun Aug 18 8:04:09 US/Eastern 2002
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Administrivia
[Avi Feldblum]
Asking a non-Jew to ask another non-Jew (2)
[Daniel M Wells, Gershon Dubin]
Carrying a Passport
[David Ziants]
Carrying handkerchief in pocket on Shabbat
[David Ziants]
Carrying ID on Shabbos
[Akiva Miller]
Folding Talit on Shabbat
[Steven White]
Havdalla motzei shabbat chazon (3)
[Akiva Atwood, Shmuel Ross, Joel Rich]
Shabbos Goy
[Bernard Raab]
Yeshiva Students sharing room
[Ephie Tabory]
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From: Avi Feldblum <mljewish@...>
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 07:49:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Administrivia
Hello All,
I'll welcome me back to mail-jewish. After looking through the halachot,
it was unclear to me whether I would be permitted to continue putting out
mail-jewish during my week of sitting shiva, so I did not put out any
issues that during that period. When I got up from shiva, we had some
problems with Shamash and the listproc, that prevented any of the lists
from working (and mail sent during last Wednesday and Thursday may have
not gotten through). That was cleared up late Friday, and I think that all
is working now. So time to get mail-jewish back to publication!
Avi Feldblum
mail-jewish Moderator
<mljewish@...>
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From: Daniel M Wells <wells@...>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 18:42:34 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: Re: Asking a non-Jew to ask another non-Jew
>> Asking a gentile to ask a second gentile is a "Shvus de Shvus" which
>> according to some is allowed.
> Most poskim only allow it
What? Shvus deShvus?
> if there is a need for a mitzva, or public need.
But perhaps the mitzvah delayed and/or the public need dispensed with.
Who says its a mitzvah or public need to turn the air conditioners back on
after a power outage. Did people not daven 50 years ago w/o air
conditioners?
>> But if you ask a goy to join you in a drink of schnapps in a dark room
>> and he turns on that light so that you can also drink that would be
>> forbidden.
> No. Light by its nature is for everyone (ner l'echad ner lemae'ah)
Where is this stated as a halacha?
> so even if he had you in mind ALSO (not just you) you may use the light.
'Having you in mind ALSO' is davka the problem. He is turning on the light
for YOU (as well as himself) and thus he is like your servant who is not
supposed to work. According to this our Rav also holds that if a goy is
walking by an unlit Jewish house and realizing that the lights have
failed, and without asking he restores the power out of the goodness of
his heart, the Jewish owner is not allowed to benefit.
There are two main issurs involved: that of asking (amira) and that of
benefit (hanaah)
Daniel
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From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 16:25:29 GMT
Subject: Re: Asking a non-Jew to ask another non-Jew
Daniel M Wells <wells@...> writes:
> Asking a gentile to ask a second gentile is a "Shvus de Shvus" which
> according to some is allowed.
> Most poskim only allow it
> What? Shvus deShvus?
Yes.
> But perhaps the mitzvah delayed and/or the public need dispensed with.
> Who says its a mitzvah or public need to turn the air conditioners back
> on after a power outage. Did people not daven 50 years ago w/o air
> conditioners?
Sure. They also davened a hundred years ago without electric lights
(and therefore with none, late Shabbos afternoon). Many places do not
have an eruv; who says it's permitted to repair an eruv for the benefit
of the public (it is)?
Public benefit is determined by time and place, not in the absolute.
> No. Light by its nature is for everyone (ner l'echad ner lemae'ah)
> Where is this stated as a halacha?
It's a mishna in Shabbos with no opposing view. I cannot give you
chapter and verse in Shulchan Aruch since I have no sefarim with me, but
if you cannot find it I'll get it to you.
> 'Having you in mind ALSO' is davka the problem. He is turning on the
> light for YOU (as well as himself) and thus he is like your servant who
> is not supposed to work.
No, he's doing an act which by its nature cannot be done part way.
There is no way he could light a light (or construct a ramp to go off a
ship, to use the mishna's other example) for one person and it not be
available for others. Ner l'echad, ner lemai'ah; kevesh l'echad, kevesh
lemai'ah.
Under those (limited) circumstances, there is no possibility that he
might do extra work specifically for you (shemah yarbeh bishvilo) and
it's permitted.
In circumstances where he _might_ do extra for you, he cannot do it for
the both of you.
He is NOT your servant unless he's your servant; shevisas avadim has
nothing to do with this issue.
> According to this our Rav also holds that if a goy is
> walking by an unlit Jewish house and realizing that the lights have
> failed, and without asking he restores the power out of the goodness of
> his heart, the Jewish owner is not allowed to benefit.
This is correct and does not contradict what I have written. In the
case you cite, there is no benefit to the nonJew (except a good feeling,
which does not count in this situation) from turning the lights on in
your house and proceeding down the street. When he derives physical
benefit from the act, AND it's the type as described where there's no
chashash shemah yarbeh bishvilo, you may use the light or ramp.
> There are two main issurs involved: that of asking (amira) and that of
> benefit (hanaah)
Again, correct but does not contradict what I wrote. One may not
benefit from a melacha which a goy does unless:
1. He too derives physical benefit from it
2. It could not be done in a greater/smaller fashion, similar to
lighting a light or building a ramp.
Gershon
<gershon.dubin@...>
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From: David Ziants <dziants@...>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 00:46:22 +0300
Subject: Re: Carrying a Passport
> From: Alan Friedenberg <elshpen@...>
> Before I lived within an eruv, I always had to carry my
> apartment key on Shabbos on a belt that was specially made so
> the key was an essential part of the belt.
This is a normal situation, of how to cope with an apartment key
on Shabbat where there is no Eiruv.
> I don't understand how one can carry anything around
> the neck on a necklace type holder, unless the passport holder
> was part of the necklace.
I have often learnt that in some "emergency situations" (with "life and
death" everything is permitted), a Rabbinic prohibition (carrying in a
Karmelit in our case) can be performed with a shinnuy (unusual
way). Obviously an assessment of the "necklace type holder" would have
to be made, if this can be considered a shinnuy and I suppose that this
depends on whether one would normally use it during the week.
Since we are talking about a case where one could be into big trouble
with the Authorities if one did not have an id (and no doubt the
political situation between the government and the Jewish community
plays a part here) I could understand a Rav permitting this even if one
is not strictly "wearing" the passport.
This brings me to a question, that I have, which I will send as a
separate posting....
David Ziants
<dziants@...>
Ma'aleh Adumim, Israel
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From: David Ziants <dziants@...>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 01:04:10 +0300
Subject: Carrying handkerchief in pocket on Shabbat
When one is in a place without an eiruv - as happens most of the time
outside Israel - one is supposed to wear ones handkerchief around ones
neck on Shabbat. One is not allowed to carry it in ones pocket or up
ones sleeve. This is a well known halacha among those who live or grew
up in chu"l (outside Israel).
Occasionally one sees people (in Chu"l), who otherwise keep Shabbat, put
their handkerchief in their pocket (but they are not carrying anything
else). I understand that not everything someone does is correct but in
order to be able to be "dan l'kaf z'chut" ("look at the merit") I would
like to know whether there are (or were) any poskim that allowed this,
in the light that Rabbinic prohibitions can sometimes be suspended for
"kavod habriot" (human dignity)?
The correct way of having the handkerchief around ones neck is such that
one is properly wearing it as a kerchief. Many people though just have
it loosely around ones neck, which is not called "wearing". In the light
that a Rabbinic prohibition (carrying in a Karmelit in our case) can
sometimes be performed with a shinnuy for kavod habriot reasons has
there been any documented heter for this?
We are obviously talking about carrying in a karmelit.
My question is based on the premise that a handkerchief is needed for
kavod habriot. Is this a correct premise?
David Ziants
<dziants@...>
Ma'aleh Adumim, Israel
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From: <kennethgmiller@...> (Akiva Miller)
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 19:41:01 -0400
Subject: re: Carrying ID on Shabbos
The Shemirath Shabbath K'Hilchata, 18:22b answers with the following
(taken from the English version):
Subject to the following two conditions, a person is allowed to go out
into reshuth ha-rabbi with an identity card or certificate, during time
of war or emergency.
1) It must be carried in an unusual way, for example stuck in one's
hat.
2) One must be on one's way to perform a mitzva, for example to
prayers or to study Torah.
In the Hebrew edition, he gives the following sources for the above:
Responsa of Maharash Engel, vol 3 sec 43 and vol 7 sec 20, and Responsa
Kol Mevaser, vol 1 sec 79.
Akiva Miller
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From: <StevenJ81@...> (Steven White)
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 22:35:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Folding Talit on Shabbat
In 36:85, Immanuel Burton <IBURTON@...>
quotes extensively from Shmirat Shabat k'hilchata. Among other citations:
> 28:81a states that any act which is permissible on Shabbos or Yom Tov
> which (a) is done without the involvement of any special bother, and,
> (b) one is so used to doing without thinking about the benefit that will
> result from its being done may be done on Shabbos or Yom Tov even if one
> will derive a benefit afterwards, as long as one does not expressly say
> that one will be deriving a benefit afterwards. Examples given include
> returning a book to its place, putting food back in the fridge, and
> taking a key with one when one goes out.
>
> I once heard an ingenious explanation of why one is allowed to carry a
> key (on Yom Tov, or on Shabbos with an eruv) if one leaves one's house
> shortly before the end of Shabbos or Yom Tov, and that is that since one
> would not go out of one's house without a key, taking the key with one
> is actually part of going out, and not preparation for returning.
I have always treated the issue of my tallit in the same way. The
tallit is a garment with holy tzitzit, used specifically for prayer to
Hashem, and I should treat it with respect. And part of the way I treat
it with respect is to fold it and put it away properly when I am
finished using it. It is (a) no special trouble, and (b) I don't think
about it being ready for tomorrow when I fold it; rather, I think that
folding it is part of using it on Shabbat (like with the key).
Steven White
Highland Park, NJ
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From: Akiva Atwood <atwood@...>
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 23:43:59 -0400
Subject: re: Havdalla motzei shabbat chazon
> Why grape juice? I've never heard any claim that grape juice is
> HALAKHICALLY different from wine. Thus, wherever grape juice is
> permitted so is wine, and wherever wine is forbidden so is graire juice
> (thus grape juice requires a hekhsher to assure that it's not stam
> yainam).
AIUI Wine is suitable for the mizbeach -- and grape juice isn't.
At the seder wine is preferable -- grape juice is only b'dieved.
Akiva
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From: Shmuel Ross <shmuel@...>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 01:47:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Havdalla motzei shabbat chazon
A few people wrote, replying to an earlier post of mine...
> > Personally, I use beer. Which seems appropriate for the theme
> > of the Nine Days, as I dislike the stuff. (That's not actually
> > the reason I use it, though, just to clarify.)
>
> This could, of course, lead you to a shaaleh about making a brocho on
> something you dislike.....
On the one hand, I didn't express myself as well as I might have in
my original message. I don't drink beer during the year; every time
I've used it for havdallah in the Nine Days, I've tried a different
brand, in hopes that this one'll be better. When making the brocho,
then, there was at least some chance -- indeed, one I was hoping for --
that I would end up liking it, or at least not actively disliking it.
(This year's findings were that I do, indeed, like Sam Adams more
than Budweiser. Unfortunately, that's not saying much. Bleah.)
That said, given that I *have* ended up hating it every year, you
guys do have a point. Thanks for pointing this out. Either I'm gonna
have to acquire a taste for beer during the year, or I'm gonna have to
ask my local Orthodox rabbi for a better solution.
Shmuel
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From: <Joelirich@...> (Joel Rich)
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 08:49:13 EDT
Subject: Re: Havdalla motzei shabbat chazon
<< Why grape juice? I've never heard any claim that grape juice is
HALAKHICALLY different from wine. >>
Actually there is a line of thought that does differentiate between
grape juice and wine and thus discourages the use of grape juice for 4
cups on passover. The line of thought is that "modern" grape juice
differs from talmudic grape juice, Talmudic grape juice was from freshly
squeezed grapes and had the capacity to eventually become wine. IIUC
modern grape juice is treated so that it can never ferment and thus some
hold it to be halakhically different from wine.
KT
Joel Rich
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From: Bernard Raab <beraab@...>
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 18:42:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Shabbos Goy
Zev Sero makes the point that there are really very few things that one
could properly ask a goy to do on Shabbos that is forbidden to a Jew,
especially now that the vital job of stoking the coals or lighting the
fire is no longer necessary. I was surprised and amused to discover a
few years ago while walking through the Jerusalem district of Bayit
Vegan that a very official Shabbos Goy was apparently employed there. He
had a prominent sign on the roof of his car which read: "Goy L'Shabbat",
and a sign on his front door explaining that the service was not to be
abused since it was quite costly!
Can anyone on the list confirm my experience and tell us what his
principal functions are?
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From: Ephie Tabory <tabore@...>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 07:47:27 +0200
Subject: Re: Yeshiva Students sharing room
Jeanette Friedman Sieradski wrote with regard to males in same room that
> Interestingly, there is a growing movement among mothers in Israel to
keep their sons sleeping at home while attending yeshivot in Israel for
that very reason.<
Does anyone have data indeed indicating "a growing movement" and the
reasons for such a movement if there is one?
Ephie Tabory
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End of Volume 36 Issue 92
