Volume 37 Number 11
Produced: Thu Sep 19 1:27:09 US/Eastern 2002
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Eiruv for women too
[Chaim]
Folding a tallit (2)
[Carl Singer, Frank Silbermann]
Grape Juice and Wine (2)
[Barak Greenfield, W. Baker]
Internet ban
[Tzadik Vanderhoof]
Lights in shul pre-electricity
[Shayna Kravetz]
men vs. women
[Menashe Elyashiv]
Men vs women (Boro park)
[Emmanuel Ifrah]
Purpose Of Mitzvot.
[Immanuel Burton]
Siddur/machzor on Bar Ilan
[Tzadik Vanderhoof]
Torah as Historical Record (2)
[Stan Tenen, <rubin20@...>]
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From: <chaim-m@...> (Chaim)
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 17:02:18 +0300
Subject: Re: Eiruv for women too
In vol 37 #08, Chaim Shapiro wrote:
<<There was a poster on the shul wall warning everyone to avoid using
the eruv. The poster made it clear that the use of the eruv was Asur
(forbidden) without any question. A small note of the poster said that
the eruv is even prohibited for women. I was quite shocked as I do
believe Hilchos Eruvin (the laws of Eruv) apply equally to men as well
as women. Maybe I am misguided, but I found that poster quite
condescending.>>
Yes, Hilchoss Eiruvin apply to women just like they do to men. However,
there are families (that I know personally) wherein the Eiruv is
Hallachically OK, but the men of the family are machmir on themselves
and don't use it. It comes as no surprise to me that the poster you saw
noted that they held that the Eiruv there was not permitted "even for
women". This was to make sure that it wasn't a pure machmir situation
(whereby the men didn't carry but the women did), but that it was not
permitted to everyone, even those (i.e., women) who normally use the
eiruv.
Kol Tuv,
Chaim
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From: <CARLSINGER@...> (Carl Singer)
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 07:13:48 EDT
Subject: Re: Folding a tallit
To revisit a recent series of questions (not crease releated.) Is
folding a Tallis considered work done on Shabbos in preparation for
Voch. If you have only the one Tallis, are you preparing it for use on
Sunday?
Kol Tov
Carl Singer
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From: Frank Silbermann <fs@...>
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 09:33:24 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Folding a tallit
In V37 N08 Nachum (Andrew) Klafter says:
> ... it is somewhat inaccurate to call a tallis a "holy garment."
> It's true that nowadays we only use tallesim for prayer, but the whole
> concept of a tallis is that it is an ordinary garment of clothing which
> happens to have four corners. ... It can be brought into the bathroom
> and even worn while relieving oneself, and there is no prohibition in
> doing this. It is not like tefillin or a sefer Torah.
Some tallisim have the tallis brocha embroidered onto it. If so, would
it have the sanctity of a siddur? Would that affect whether one should
fold it differently versus whether one should just roll it up? Should
one therefore prefer a tallis without brocha embroidery?
Frank Silbermann
New Orleans, Louisiana
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From: Barak Greenfield <DocBJG@...>
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 00:33:08 -0400
Subject: Grape Juice and Wine
> >This topic was discussed late last year and the above line of reasoning
> >was presented to differentiate modern pasteurized grape juice from the
> >squeezed cluster of grapes mentioned in the gemara.
> >However, no halachic source for this differentiation was ever brought.
>
> Rabbi (Meir) Scheinberg spoke about this recently, and while he cited
> many sources, what I recall is that Rav Elyashiv shlita holds that it is
> NOT to be used for kiddush (and the beracha is shehakol) while Rav
> Shlomo Zalman Auerbach z"l held that one may use it. The rationale was
> as described by the poster, i.e. whether the fact that the GJ can never
> become wine, or the fact that it once could have, controls.
Yes, but the question is whether R. Elyashiv (and others who share this
view) have a halachic basis for the concept that grape juice must be
fermentable to be considered as wine, or whether this is their own
sevara.
Barak
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From: W. Baker <wbaker@...>
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 10:28:18 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Grape Juice and Wine
> From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
> Rabbi (Meir) Scheinberg spoke about this recently, and while he cited
> many sources, what I recall is that Rav Elyashiv shlita holds that it is
> NOT to be used for kiddush (and the beracha is shehakol) while Rav
> Shlomo Zalman Auerbach z"l held that one may use it. The rationale was
> as described by the poster, i.e. whether the fact that the GJ can never
> become wine, or the fact that it once could have, controls.
I suppose this explains why the change from my youth in the 40's and
50's in New York City, when no one used grape juice for kiddush, but
everyone ate Welch's grape jelly and used their grape juice as a
beverage.
This was also the era of everyone using peanut oil as the only
available, Kosher for Pesach oil.
May you all be inscribes and sealed for a good year.
Wendy Baker
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From: Tzadik Vanderhoof <tzadikv@...>
Subject: Re: Internet ban
>The ban is still in effect and the details, I believe, include a heter
>for email and even web use for business purposes ....
Maybe I did not make my question clear enough. I was not asking if the
ban was still in effect or what the official constraints of it are. The
text of the ban is easily available on the internet (ironically enough).
I was asking practically, did it have any effect on people's behavior,
and if so, how?
Just to give an analogy, my question can be compared to: "What is the
average speed on I-695?" The answer would not be, "The speed limit is
still 55 mph." It would involve going out and observing.
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From: Shayna Kravetz <skravetz@...>
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 01:20:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Lights in shul pre-electricity
Carl Singer writes:
>My Mother told me that in pre-war Poland her synagogue used candles --
>they did not daven in the dark. She remembered spending all of Yom
>Kippur night in shule (perhaps it wasn't safe to go home late at night.)
>to the light of candles.
Your mother's family may have shared a tradition with mine (also from
Poland): that it is disrespectful or, at least, inappropriate, for the
shul to be left "alone" on Yom Kippur. Not a question of safety in
travelling home after a long ma'ariv, but rather a sense that on this
one day of the year above all, the shul needed to be used continuously
and never left silent and empty. I can't recall staying overnight but we
would not go home during the interval between musaf and minchah on Yom
Kippur. Instead, we would stay in shul to learn or say tehillim or
piyyutim - a tradition that I hope to maintain again this year IY"H.
Shayna
Toronto
K'tivah v'khatimah tova
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From: Menashe Elyashiv <elyashm@...>
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 18:13:39 +0200
Subject: men vs. women
H. Shapiro asked about women & eruv, I once heard why we say veyanuhu ba
or bo or bam- on friday, she lights on time but he thinks he still has
time = veyanuhu ba after the morning meal, she pushes the stroller
because he won't use the eruv = veyanuhu bo and he + she take shabbat
nap = veyanuhu bam (however, our minhag is bo also in minha...and there
were other minhagim)
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From: Emmanuel Ifrah <eifrah@...>
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 13:23:06 +0200
Subject: Men vs women (Boro park)
In mail-Jewish Vol. 37 #08 Chaim Shapiro wrote:
> [...] As it turned out, I davened Shabbas Mincha at this same shul.
> There was a poster on the shul wall warning everyone to avoid using
> the eruv. The poster made it clear that the use of the eruv was Asur
> (forbidden) without any question. A small note of the poster said
> that the eruv is even prohibited for women.
> I was quite shocked as I do believe Hilchos Eruvin (the laws of Eruv)
> apply equally to men as well as women. Maybe I am misguided, but I
> found that poster quite condescending.
I repeat here what I heard in a shi'ur based on Yalkut Yossef (compiled
by the son of R. Ovadia Yossef).
He says that even though Sefaradim hold like the Rambam that there is
indeed a reshut ha-rabim de-orayta and that consequently, they should
not carry within an eruv, one can be lenient as far as women are
concerned because not carrying on shabbat forces them to stay secluded
at home during the whole shabbat with their infants. Men who are
obviously not in the same position should be stringent and not carry in
the eruv.
The referred to poster, I assumed, was based on a similar psak.
Emmanuel Ifrah (Paris, France)
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From: Immanuel Burton <IBURTON@...>
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 11:40:29 +0100
Subject: Purpose Of Mitzvot.
I was discussing some time ago with a chavrusa the purpose behind
mitzvot, and chukim in particular. Some mitzvot, e.g. building a
guard-rail on a flat roof, have obvious reasons, and some prohibtions,
e.g. those against theft and murder, preserve the social fabric. With
regards to chukim, though, I suggested the following:
One is supposed to serve G-d with all that one has, from one's physical
body to using one's possessions in a suitable manner. One is even
supposed to lay down one's life if need be. Chukim are mitzvot whose
reasons we cannot fathom, yet we perform them anyway. By so doing, we
surrender our intelligence in the service of G-d by performing mitzvot
whose reasons we do not know.
My chavrusa commented that he has heard a similar idea to this before,
but couldn't recall a source.
I am, however, left with one question. We were taught in school that
one's spiritual existence in the World To Come consists of Torah study.
Has anyone suggested that once we reach this state we will be able to
understand the reasons behind the chukim?
Immanuel Burton.
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From: Tzadik Vanderhoof <tzadikv@...>
Subject: Siddur/machzor on Bar Ilan
This brings up a good point. Why doesn't Bar Ilan have the siddur and
machzor on its CD?
David Curwin writes:
>>There is a popular "Jewish" song out there with the words "atah banim
>>shiru lamelech". Does anyone know the origin of the lyrics? Couldn't
>>find them on the Bar Ilan CD.
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From: Stan Tenen <meru1@...>
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 08:42:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Torah as Historical Record
At 05:15 AM 9/5/02, Ben Katz wrote:
> Ibn Ezra himself quotes this verse in his comments on Devarim
>1:2 when he refers to the "sod hashneim asar" (referring to his opinion
>regarding Joshua's authorship of the last 12 verses of the Torah). Note
>how Ibn Ezra holds a more extreme position than either opinion regarding
>the Torah's authorship in Baba batra 14 b (where one opinion is the
>Joshua wrote the last 8 verses of the Torah) and that a small minority
>of rishonim such as Rav Yehudah Hachasid and others also held similar
>opinions. See March Shapiro's article on the 13 principles of faith in
>the Torah Umada Journal a few years back (regarding the 8th principle
>that the Torah is Divine) and my article in the Jewish Bible Quarterly
>regarding Rav Yehudah Hachasid's Torah commentary (Vol. 25 No. 1, 1997,
>pp. 23-30).
With regard to the authorship of the last 12 verses of Torah, wouldn't
this be one of the few places where it might be appropriate to see what
the "Codes in Torah" or other similar statistical pattern-recognition
tests could do?
Put simply (and in my opinion), the codes themselves -- that is, the
patterns of letters that are statistically associated -- are real. But
the prophetic claims made as interpretations of these patterns are not
real. (The best treatment of what's technically justifiable and what is
not is in Jeffrey Satinover's "Cracking the Bible Code". There are
links to the "codes" issues on my Meru Foundation website at
<http://www.meru.org/Codes/biblcode.html> ).
So, I'm not thinking at all of the legitimacy of the prophetic claims
for the codes, because there likely is none. But statistical tests and
other tests based on our knowledge of grammar, style, spelling, and the
like, can tell us -- sometimes -- if two works are by the same author or
not. (Of course, I'm not suggesting aiding or abetting the anti-Torah
documentary hypothesis of the academic scholars. I'm only suggesting
that if there is a serious question in our tradition, then we might make
use of statistical techniques in this limited case, because it could be
halachically appropriate when done properly.)
Has anyone done this? Has anyone examined the letter-sequences to see
if there is any sort of patterning, and if there is, has anyone compared
patterning for the 12 verses with adjacent material?
L'shana tova.
Best,
Stan
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From: <rubin20@...>
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 09:06:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Torah as Historical Record
> and that a small minority of rishonim such as Rav Yehudah Hachasid and
> others also held similar opinions.
I just would like to point out that this 'minority of Rishonim' is
entirely based on recently discovered/published manuscripts, and Rav
Moshe Fienstein was of the opinion that this was a insertion by other
people
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End of Volume 37 Issue 11