Volume 37 Number 24
Produced: Wed Oct 2 2:30:34 US/Eastern 2002
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Aleinu on Yom Kippur
[Yehonatan and Randy Chipman]
Artscroll vs. Birnbaum (3)
[Jay S. Lapidus, Mark Steiner, David Farkas]
Does the Mendelsohn translation & commentary belong to mainstream
[Jay F Shachter]
Dr Lamm's eulogy for R. Soloveitchik
[Shalom Carmy]
Eulogy of Rav by Rabbi Lamm
[Irving Green]
Havdalah Question
[Ira L. Jacobson]
Hayom Piut
[Menashe Elyashiv]
Kadsheinu B'Mitzvotecha
[David and Toby Curwin]
Michal bat Shaul
[Menashe Elyashiv]
Michal bat Shaul and Tefillin
[<MSDratch@...>]
question about the end of Yom Kippur
[Neil Normand]
Yamim Noraim Questions (2)
[Shmuel Ross, David and Toby Curwin]
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From: Yehonatan and Randy Chipman <yonarand@...>
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 15:36:37 +0200
Subject: Aleinu on Yom Kippur
.cp. asked (v37n16) when, if at all, one should say Aleinu on Yom
Kippur.
Aleinu (and Ein Kelokeinu) are omitted in standard nushaot and
mahzorim because of the old tradition that Yom Kppur is a day devoted
entirely to prayer, and one doesn't leave shul at all. This minhag took
hold whether or not this is in fact the case.
Howver, the Bet Ha-Levi Mahzor (an old-fashioned mahzor,which I
think originated in 19th century Poland), has a small note in Rashi
script at the end of Musaf for Yom Kippur, saying that one should really
say Aleinu and Ein Kelokeinu at this point, but quietly and
unostentatiously, so as not to make it seem that one is "out-frumming"
others. He suggests doing so while the hazan is singing "Hayom
ta'amtzeinu," but leaves it to the individual's judgment.
I've never heard of Kriat Hatorah being considered a hefsek for
purposes of Aleinu.
Yehonatan Chipman, Yerushalayim
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From: Jay S. Lapidus <jlapidus@...>
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 07:31:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Artscroll vs. Birnbaum
> From: E. Stieglitz <ephraim0@...>
> For the Yom Tov Amidah, the Birnbaum siddur starts the last
> paragraph of the middle section with
> "Elokeinu v'elokei avoteinu [rtzei vmnuchateinu] kadsheinu
> bmitzvotekha..."
> while the Artscroll has the same paragraph as
> "[Elokeinu v'elokei avoteinu rtzei vmnuchateinu] kadsheinu
> bmitzvotekha..."
> The words within brackets [...] are supposed to be said on
> Shabbat only.
> What is the reason for the difference here?
I looked into this last year. While R' Birnbaum's logic to include
those words makes sense, I looked in Daniel Goldschmidt's critical
edition of the Yamim Noraim Machzorim and found no evidence that there
was any manuscript with R' Birnbaum's text. Nor did I find anything in
Elbogen's _Jewish Liturgy_ nor in Jacobson's _Netiv Binah_ to support
him.
Moadim leSimcha,
Jay S. Lapidus--Check out <http://jlapidus.tripod.com/ocr>
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From: Mark Steiner <marksa@...>
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 08:38:50 +0200
Subject: Re: Artscroll vs. Birnbaum
Concerning the "elokeinu velokei avoteinu" formula included in the
Birnbaum siddur but not Artscroll, for Yom Tov that does not fall on
Shabbat, Birnbaum himself cites R. Yaakov Emden (which I have not
consulted) who states that there is no reason not to say the formula,
since only retzei vimnuhatenu refers to Shabbat. Thus Birnbaum reflects
an emendation. Artscroll gives the unemended version.
The Artscroll version, however, is at least as old as the
rishonim--I consulted Mahzor Vitry, published by a disciple of Rashi,
which gives the "Artscroll" version. And instead of our "kadshenu
bemitzvotekha", Mahzor Vitry has "vekadshenu bemitzvotekha", the
conjunction ve- proving that there is no need to say "elokenu velokey
avotenu" beforehand. Presumably the idea is that the phrase "vahasienu
hashem elokenu et birkat mo`adekha..." takes the place of the Shabbat
elokenu velokey avotenu.
Mark Steiner
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From: David Farkas <DavidF@...>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 12:12:59 -0400
Subject: Artscroll vs. Birnbaum
Philip Birnbaum writes in his introduction that his text is based on the
Ya'a vetz ( R' Yakov Emden, not the Chasid) ( Not that R' Emden wasn't a
Chasid!), who writes that "elokeinu velokei avosainu" should always be
read, even on a weekday, and it was a printing mistake that led to the
confusion. I agree with Mr. Baker that it sounds logical. However, in
the P'neni Harav, Rav Hershel Shachter's great sequel to his original
best-selling biography, sort of, of R' Yoshe Ber, Rav Yoshe Ber is
quoted as being strongly critical of Birnbaum's unilaterlal decision to
implement the Yavvets suggestion into the actual text of the Siddur. He
does not quote the name of the printer, but it is transparently obvious
that he refers to the Birnbaum siddur.
David Farkas
Cleveland Ohio 216 382 5600
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From: Jay F Shachter <jay@...>
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 22:20:02 -0600 (CDT)
Subject: Does the Mendelsohn translation & commentary belong to mainstream
In mail.jewish v37n17, Shlomo Pick <picksh@...> wrote:
> The attitude toward Moses Mendelssohn (some have it with one "s") seems
> to be dependent upon which part of Europe you come from. Germany and
> westwards usually had a positive attitude towards him....
> All those who are scandalized by its being quoted,
> have some type of eastern european - Hungarian bias. Those who employ
> it, have been under or have come under the influence of western europeans
> who employed it.
The above-stated pattern may have been realized at some later time in
history; but the earlier Jewish response to Mendelsohn was more
idiosyncratic than suggested above.
For example, it is well known that, every week, Reb Itzele, of the
Volozhin Yeshiva, would study Moses Mendelson's commentary on the weekly
Torah portion. Although a single exception would not seriously
challenge the validity of Mr Pick's geographic generalizations, my
impression is that Reb Itzele was not, in his time, considered a deviant
by his Eastern European contemporaries.
Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter
6424 N Whipple St, Chicago IL 60645-4111
(1-773)7613784
<jay@...>, http://m5.chi.il.us
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Shalom Carmy <carmy@...>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 09:20:41 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Dr Lamm's eulogy for R. Soloveitchik
It was published in Tradition in an issue preceding the Tradition
Memorial volume. it was reprinted in the book edited by Rabbi Genack.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Irving Green <scanrom@...>
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 06:55:56 -0400
Subject: RE: Eulogy of Rav by Rabbi Lamm
It is published in "Rabbi Joseph B. SOloveitchik, Man of Halacha, Man of
Faith", edited by Menachem D. Genack, Ktav Publishing,1998
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...>
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 17:11:06 +0300
Subject: Re: Havdalah Question
> My grandfather who had smycha from Europe Teles used milk.
IIRC, the Mishna Berura forbids this and Arukh Hashulhan permits it.
IRA L. JACOBSON
mailto:<laser@...>
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From: Menashe Elyashiv <elyashm@...>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 20:05:55 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: Hayom Piut
the sefaradi mahzor has the full piut - said in all hazarat hashas on RH
(3 times) & YK (4 times) btw - on RH it is the only piut said in hazarat
hashas
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From: David and Toby Curwin <tobyndave@...>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 15:39:57 +0300
Subject: Kadsheinu B'Mitzvotecha
In the siddur "Ezor Eliyahu" (Nusach HaGra) they have neither "elokeinu
v'elokei avoteinu" or "rtzei vmnuchateinu". They explain it on the
following footnote on page 314 (my translation):
"On a Yom Tov that falls on Shabbat we don't say 'Elokeinu v'elokei
avoteinu rtzei vmnuchateinu' (Ma'aseh HaRav 169)." And this is how it
was in all old siddurim before Rav Shabtai Sofer [a student of the
Levush, whose siddur was published in 1613]. Rav Shabtai Sofer
instituted the practice of saying 'Elokeinu v'elokei avoteinu rtzei
vmnuchateinu' based on the Levush (488:3), and followed him R' Azriel
and R' Elya of Vilna, R' Zalman Henna and R' Wolf Hindheim"
I don't have the Levush handy, but perhaps someone could look it up to
see the reason for the difference between Birnbaum and Artscroll.
David Curwin
Efrat, Israel
<tobyndave@...>
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From: Menashe Elyashiv <elyashm@...>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 20:00:52 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: Michal bat Shaul
I don't have my kaf hahaim handy, but I remember reading there that
Michal was a special case - she put on Tefillin because she had a male
soul - the source is kabbalistic
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: <MSDratch@...>
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 10:06:38 EDT
Subject: Re: Michal bat Shaul and Tefillin
> So where _is_ the source for Michal's wearing Tefillin?
See Tosafot, Rosh Hashanah 33a, s.v. ha Rebbi
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Neil Normand <NormandN@...>
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 09:03:55 -0400
Subject: question about the end of Yom Kippur
There is a question that I've heard asked and I imagine many people have
either asked or heard asked themselves concerning the end of Yom
Kippur. If we have just been granted forgiveness at the end of Yom
Kippur at the end of Neilah, then why 5 minutes later when we are
davening ma'ariv do we say in the shemona esreh, S'lach Lanu Avinu Ke
Chatanu, forgive us because we have sinned.
I think one way to approach this question is to suggest that the bracha
of Selicha in the shemona esreh is not only a plea for forgiveness but
an acknowledgement of the nature of G-d as being "Hamarbeh L'sloach"
great in forgiveness. That is something that always applies.
I would be interested in hearing any other suggestions that people have
Kol Tuv
Neil
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Shmuel Ross <shmuel@...>
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 22:14:39 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Yamim Noraim Questions
Shmuel Himelstein asks...
> (III) Finally - and this is only a question for those who use Nusach
> Ashkenaz - in general, the passage of "Befi Yesharim" is so formulated
> that the first letters of the second word in each phrase together spell
> out "Yitzchak" (Yesharim, Tzaddikim, Chassifdim, Kedoshim). In Nusach
> Sefarad, the third letter of each third word in turn spells out "Rivka."
> That is not the case in Nusach Ashkenaz. However, I've seen that many
> Ashkenaz Siddurim, specifically for the Yamim Noraim, follow the Nusach
> Sefarad arrangement, thus spelling out "Rivka." Does anyone know why the
> Nusach should be changed specifically for the Yamim Nora'im? And to take
> it a step further, if one davens Nusach Ashkenaz on a regular basis,
> should he make that switch on the Yamim Nora'im?
It seems clear that the answer to the last question is "yes"; if
anything, it seems more likely that Nusach Sefard expanded this change
from the Yomim Nora'im to the rest of the year, than that those
compiling Ashkenaz machzorim decided to follow Sefard on these days.
(This is sheer conjecture on my part, though; aside from internal logic,
I have no evidence that this actually happened.)
The other question is still a good one. While the ArtScroll Ashkenaz
machzor specifically notes that the order is changed on Rosh HaShana and
Yom Kippur "alluding to the fact that Isaac and Rebeccah prayed together
successfully until God blessed them with children *(Rokeach)*," it does
not explain why this change would be made specifically and exclusively
on those days.
Shmuel
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: David and Toby Curwin <tobyndave@...>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 16:16:15 +0300
Subject: Re: Yamim Noraim Questions
Shmuel Himelstein <himels@...> wrote:
> a) On what basis do some congregations say the verse of "Amareinu
> Ha'azina" aloud, and on what basis do others not do so?
>
> b) After "Amareinu" there is a verse, "Yiheyu Leratzon," which no one
> says aloud. If it is supposed to be said, when is supposed to be said,
> and if so, why is it to be said quietly?
In Minhag Lita, both Amareinu and Yiheyu appear at the end of the Shma
Kolenu section, after Al Tashlicheinu. If Al Tashlicheinu is the last
verse said out loud by both Minhag Lita and Polin, then it is reasonable
to assume that people who had heard the Minhag Lita version (and not
said Amareinu and Yiheyu out loud) might have continued not saying those
two verses out loud even when they went to slichot of Minhag Polin.
> (II) The next is a problem that has puzzled me for years:
>
> When the congregation concludes Pesukei D'zimra toward the end of
> "Nishmat" on the Yamim Nora'im, the Chazan of Pesukei D'Zimra stops
> before the word "Hamelech." Assuming the congregation also stops at that
> point (and maybe it should not), when does the congregation recite the
> text from "Hamelech" up to "Uvemakhalot"? Along with the Chazan? Or does
> the Congregation end its Pesukei D'Zimra just before "Uvemakhalot" and
> then wait for the Chazan to catch up? The same basic question applies to
> the Shalosh Regalim, when the Chazan of Pesukei D'Zimra stops just
> before "HaKeil Beta'atzumot."
The source of starting with Hamelech is in the Levush (584). I don't
have it here, but perhaps a clue could be found there.
> (III) Finally - and this is only a question for those who use Nusach
> Ashkenaz - in general, the passage of "Befi Yesharim" is so formulated
> that the first letters of the second word in each phrase together spell
> out "Yitzchak" (Yesharim, Tzaddikim, Chassifdim, Kedoshim). In Nusach
> Sefarad, the third letter of each third word in turn spells out "Rivka."
> That is not the case in Nusach Ashkenaz. However, I've seen that many
> Ashkenaz Siddurim, specifically for the Yamim Noraim, follow the Nusach
> Sefarad arrangement, thus spelling out "Rivka." Does anyone know why the
> Nusach should be changed specifically for the Yamim Nora'im? And to take
> it a step further, if one davens Nusach Ashkenaz on a regular basis,
> should he make that switch on the Yamim Nora'im?
Again the source is in the Levush (ibid). According to the siddur "Ezor
Eliyahu" that switch is found in many very old machzorim.
David Curwin
Efrat, Israel
<tobyndave@...>
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End of Volume 37 Issue 24
