Volume 38 Number 52
Produced: Wed Feb 5 6:10:31 US/Eastern 2003
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Davening with a minyan of a different nusach
[Joel Rich]
Ellul
[Ira L. Jacobson]
Fund for Ramon Family?
[Neal B. Jannol]
Gadol (2)
[Eli Turkel, Gil Student]
IDF Creates Condolence E-Mail Address for Family of Col. Ramon
[Carl Singer]
Misheberach for a Sick Person
[<HLSesq@...>]
Names of Months (6)
[J B Gross, Jonathan Katz, Zev Sero, Michael Rogovin, Mike
Gerver, Joshua Adam Meisner]
Pasuk for name
[<Aronio@...>]
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From: <Joelirich@...> (Joel Rich)
Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 09:28:25 -0500
Subject: Davening with a minyan of a different nusach
Is anyone aware of a compilation or sources on what must be done by the
individual different than his own native nusach (eg of possibilities
kedusha,kaddish,tachanun...). Anything on preference on davening with a
minyan of one's own nusach (eg at the kotel must/should I wait for a
ashkenazic mincha if a sfardi one is starting)
KT
Joel
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From: Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...>
Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 15:59:32 +0200
Subject: Re: Ellul
David I. Cohen proposed that the Sanhedrin
>could manipulate the beginning of Ellul (end of Av) so the new moon
>for Tishri would make Ellul 29 days.
Zev Sero similarly suggested that
>They could increase the chances tremendously by making sure that Av had
>30 days. This ought to ensure that the Tishri moon would be visible,
>barring bad weather,
That sounds to me as though they are imputing to the Sanhedrin the will
to ignore the testimony of the witnesses who came to report seeing the
molad. This raises several questions:
1. Is this the way you think a court should treat evidence?
2. Did such a thing ever happen?
3 What would be the credibility of a court that chose to disregard
evidence to suit its own purposes?
IRA L. JACOBSON
mailto:<laser@...>
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From: <NJannol@...> (Neal B. Jannol)
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 10:41:11 -0800
Subject: Re: Fund for Ramon Family?
Does anyone in Houston know if there is a segregated fund for the Ilan
Ramon family?
Neal B. Jannol
Loeb & Loeb LLP, 10100 Santa Monica Blvd., Suite 2200
Los Angeles, CA 90067
Phone - (310) 282-2358, Fax - (310) 282-2200
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From: Eli Turkel <turkel@...>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 20:26:09 +0200 (IST)
Subject: Gadol
Gil writes
"I strongly disagree. I would not call Ibn Ezra a gadol ba-Torah of his
generation either. He was a brilliant commentator and philosopher.
What if I know Maseches Berachos inside and out, literally by heart,
with all commentaries. I have a deep understanding of the aggadatas ..."
On the other hand I assume that Gil would call someone a gadol if he
mastered all of shas and commentaries and poskim even though he was not
comfortable in Tanach or Kabbalah or Haskafa or history etc.
Our present definitions stress Talmud to the exclusion of other
fields. However as noted many of the great commentaries on Tanach as
Malbim were not famous as Poskim or Talmudists though they were
proficient in Shas. Even greats like RSRH and Rav Kook were less known
for their talmudic chiddushin than other fields even though they were
strong in Talmudics that was not thier "special" contribution.
kol tuv,
Eli Turkel
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From: Gil Student <gil_student@...>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 13:53:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Gadol
Eli Turkel wrote:
>On the other hand I assume that Gil would call someone a gadol if
>he mastered all of shas and commentaries and poskim even though
>he was not comfortable in Tanach or Kabbalah or Haskafa or history etc.
No, I would not (unless I was writing a haskamah for a book of his in
which case I would probably call him the most brillian gaon since Moshe
Rabbeinu :-). However, just because someone never published on Tanach
of Hashkafah does not mean that he was not an expert in it.
>Our present definitions stress Talmud to the exclusion of other
>fields. However as noted many of the great commentaries on Tanach
>as Malbim were not famous as Poskim or Talmudists though they were
>proficient in Shas.
The Malbim WAS a noted posek and talmudist. See his Artzos HaChaim on
the beginning of Shulchan Aruch. Brilliant!
Gil Student
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From: <CARLSINGER@...> (Carl Singer)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 07:53:17 EST
Subject: IDF Creates Condolence E-Mail Address for Family of Col. Ramon
Israel Defense Forces Creates Condolence E-Mail Address for Family of
Col. Ilan Ramon
IDF Spokesperson Sunday, February 02, 2003
The Israel Defense Forces has created a special e-mail address where the
world public may express their condolences to the Ramon Family and to
the people of the State of Israel on the loss of Col. Ilan Ramon in the
Columbia Space Shuttle tragedy.
The e-mail address is: <ilanfamily@...>
All letters received by the IDF will be presented to the Ramon family.
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From: <HLSesq@...>
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 16:23:58 EST
Subject: Re: Misheberach for a Sick Person
Other issues regarding the misheberach for a sick person: First: My shul
has fairly recently introduced a text of this misheberach that lists, in
addition to the avos, Sarah, Rivka, Rachel v Leah. None of the standard
siddur texts I have access to has this formulation. Does anyone know
whether there is an early version that lists the matriarchs? Second: If
not, why? The invocation of the matriarchs is generally viewed as a plea
for mercy, in the same way that the use of the sick person's mother's
name is a plea for mercy. (This latter point has been debated--some
people say that the mother's name is used not because of the feminine
association with mercy but rather because of the certainty of the mother
but not the father--can anyone settle that point?) Third:Can anyone
explain why the avot listed are these seven and not, eg, the "ushpizin
seven" ?
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From: J B Gross <jbgross@...>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 20:49:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Names of Months
> The only month names not mentioned therein are Iyar, Tishrei and Cheshvan
Here's an anwser for Heshvan:
Back around 5726, in a Biblical Aramaic course, I heard the following
explanation for Marheshvan from Dr. Michel Bernstein, a"h.
It's really composed of two words,
M R H + Sh W N.
The Hebrew cognates are
Y R H + Sh M N: yerah shmini, or "eight month", counting from Nisan of
course.
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From: Jonathan Katz <jkatz@...>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 09:18:39 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Names of Months
Immanuel Burton writes:
> Does anyone have etymoligies for the other three months [Iyar, Tishrei,
> Cheshvan]?
You may have better luck looking under "Marcheshvan" instead of
"Cheshvan", since the former is the real name of the month. And no,
Marcheshvan" does NOT mean "bitter Cheshvan". See Mail-Jewish vol. 28
#25. In summary, the name seems to derive from "eighth month"
(Marcheshvan is the eight month counting from Nissan).
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From: Zev Sero <Zev.Sero@...>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 13:08:32 -0700
Subject: RE: Names of Months
Immanuel Burton <IBURTON@...> wrote:
> I looked up the names of the months in a copy of A Compendious And
> Complete Hebrew And Chaldee Lexicon Of The Old Testament, based on the
> works of Gesenius and Faust, with Improvements from Dietrich and other
> sources (Asher & Co, London). The only month names not mentioned
> therein are Iyar, Tishrei and Cheshvan
[...]
> I have not found etymologies for the three months mentioned above, but
> of the etymoligies I have found only two are named after gods. Does
> anyone have etymoligies for the other three months?
You won't have found Cheshvan, because the month is Merachshevan. Its
etymology is from `Verach-Sheman' (eighth month, like Hebrew `yerach
shemini'); over time the V and M got swapped, and it became
`Merach-Shevan'. Spelling it without vowels led Ashkenazim to pronounce
it `Mar-Cheshvan', and then to suppose that the core name is `Cheshvan',
and `Mar' is some sort of prefix, whereupon they came up with some
strange and utterly spurious explanations for it.
Zev Sero
<zsero@...>
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From: Michael Rogovin <rogovin@...>
Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 10:16:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Names of Months
Immanuel Burton writes in V.38 #48
> ...The only month names not mentioned therein are Iyar, Tishrei and
> Cheshvan, ... Does anyone have etymoligies for the other three months?
I don't, but in an article in Jewish Action (the OU magazine) Fall
5761/2000 Ari Z. Zivotofsky makes a rather convincing argument was made
that the month's name is not Cheshvan, but M'rachashvan (that is, not
only do we have the name of the month wrong, but the common explanation
for "Mar" in the appellation "Mar Cheshvan" as "bitter" is also
incorrect). The article is available online at
http://www.ou.org/publications/ja/5761fall/LEGALEAS.PDF
Michael Rogovin
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From: <MJGerver@...> (Mike Gerver)
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 17:39:53 EST
Subject: Names of Months
Immanuel Burton writes, in v38n48,
> I looked up the names of the months in a copy
> of A Compendious And Complete Hebrew And Chaldee Lexicon Of The Old
> Testament, based on the works of Gesenius and Faust, with Improvements
> from Dietrich and other sources (Asher & Co, London). The only month
> names not mentioned therein are Iyar, Tishrei and Cheshvan, but this
> dictionary provided the following etymologies for the remainder:
[snip]
> Does anyone have etymoligies for the other three months?
Here's what I found in Ernest Klein, A Comprehensive Etymological
DIctionary of the Hebrew Language for English Speakers:
Tishrei-- from the Akkadian "Tashritu," meaning "beginning," from the
verb "shurru," to open, begin, initiate.
Marcheshvan-- from the Akkadian "Warchu Samnu" which is cognate to the
Hebrew "Yareach Shmoneh," or "Moon {Month) Eight." He says that "m" and
"w" frequently get interchanged in Akkadian (see below under Sivan), and
I know that "y" in Hebrew sometimes corresponds to "w" in other Semitic
languages. "Yareach" and its cognates in other Semitic languages might
originally mean "wanderer" and be related to Hebrew "oreach."
Iyar-- just says it comes from Akkadian "aaru" (I guess all the
Babylonian month names come from Akkadian), but doesn't say what it
means.
This dictionary gives different explanations for some of the other
months than "A Compendious and Complete..." did. Since that dictionary
was based on the dictionary of Gesenius, which was first published in
1833, it is possible that Klein (who died in 1983 and whose dictionary
was published in 1987) makes use of more recently discovered material,
though of course "A Compendious..." has been revised since 1833 as
well. In particular, if, as Klein says, all of the Hebrew month names
are found in Akkadian, a fact that might not have been known to
Gesenius, then I don't know if "Nisan" could have come from Persian,
though it might come from an earlier Iranian language. Anyway, here's
what Klein says about the other months:
Sivan-- from Akkadian "simanu", which is also probably the source of
Hebrew "zman," and means a fixed time of year.
Tammuz-- agrees that this comes from the name of Babylonian deity, but
derives the deity's name from Old Babylonian "Dumu-zi", meaning "son who
rises" or "faithful son." I read somewhere that the deity was actually
based on a historical person, a king who lived in the 3rd millenium BCE.
Elul-- agrees that it means "harvest time" in Akkadian.
Tevet-- from Akkadian "tebetu," whose meaning is obscure, but might mean
"sinking [into the mud]," cognate with Hebrew tet-bet-ayin, "to sink."
Shevat-- from Akkadian "shabatu" meaning "to beat, kill, destroy,"
because there are hard rains that month, cognate with Hebrew
shin-bet-tet, "to strike, smite."
Adar-- from Akkadian "adaru," probably related to "iddar," meaning
"threshing floor," or possibly to "adaru" meaning "to be dark" because
it is dark and cloudy then.
I guess what all this tells us is that there is a certain amount of
speculation in these etymologies of month names, though Tammuz seems to
be on pretty firm ground.
Mike Gerver
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From: Joshua Adam Meisner <jam390@...>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 20:08:59 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Names of Months
Immanuel Burton quoted "A Compendious And Complete Hebrew And
Chaldee Lexicon Of The Old Testament", which provided etymologies for 9
of the 12 months of the Jewish year, and asked for etymologies for the
three omitted months. A friend told me, quoting a high school navi
teacher, that Marcheshvan is a contraction of Marach Shevan, which is
probably a corruption of Varach Sheman, which is Aramaic for "the eighth
month", as both the v and m sounds come from the lips (and that the
Ramban notes that these two phonemes, as well as /b/ and /f/, are
interchangeable - sorry, no more precise citation).
- Josh
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From: <Aronio@...>
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 10:02:28 EST
Subject: Pasuk for name
Hi, does anyone know the pasuk for the name (that you say at the end of
the Shmoneh Esrey) for a name that begins with a Lamed and ends with a
Bet/Vet? Like the name Lev or Leib?
I cannot find it in the list in many siddurim in which I have looked.
I know that all you have to do is find a pasuk in tanach which begins
and ends with those letters, but I can't find one. Maybe you know of
one. If so, please share.
Thanks.
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End of Volume 38 Issue 52
