Volume 39 Number 52
Produced: Thu May 29 5:15:20 US/Eastern 2003
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Bicycles on Shabbat (6)
[Akiva Miller, Gershon Dubin, Keith Bierman, Carl Singer, Janet
rosenbaum, Ari Trachtenberg]
Bicycles on Shabbos
[Yaakov Fogelman]
Dayan Westheim
[Martin D. Stern]
Kitzur maskanot Bnei Banim
[Rabbi Y. H. Henkin]
Kosherica Cruise?
[Janice Gelb]
Pesach bazman hazeh?
[Shimon Lebowitz]
Requirement to Tovel Aluminum vessels
[<rubin20@...>]
Riding a bicycle on Shabbat
[Leah Aharoni]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: <kennethgmiller@...> (Akiva Miller)
Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 08:06:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Bicycles on Shabbat
In MJ 39:49, Rabbi Ed Goldstein wrote <<< A rav I follow forbade
bicycles, baby carriages and similar wheeled devices on Shabbat as a
gezeirah mishum choresh when the wheel might cross a grassy area that is
soft. >>>
It seems that many disagree with this. Rav Shimon Eider writes on page
43 of his "Halachos of Shabbos" (with almost 6 lines of sources):
"Even should despressing the ground be inevitable [psik reisha], that
it, should the baby carriage or wheel chair be so heavy that it will
inevitably make indentations on the ground, it is permissible. The
reason is that the depressions made by the wheels on the ground are not
considered as furrows, because the wheels press down the earth and the
prohibition of [making a furrow] is where the earth is dug out."
Akiva Miller
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 13:30:41 GMT
Subject: Bicycles on Shabbat
From: <BERNIEAVI@...> (Ed Goldstein)
<<A rav I follow forbade bicycles, baby carriages and similar wheeled
devices on Shabbat as a gezeirah mishum choresh when the wheel might
cross a grassy area that is soft.>>
Aside from what should be reluctance to institute gezeros on our own
that are not found in the Talmud, this is very strange.
The Gemara explicitly permits one (according to Rabbi Shimon, whose view
is normative halacha) to actually drag something along the grass despite
the *possibility* that it might cause a rut (choresh).
If that is more than a possibility, but a definite outcome (pesik
reishei) it is forbidden to drag it, but I don't see why rolling
something would be covered by this prohibition.
Gershon
<gershon.dubin@...>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Keith Bierman <Keith.Bierman@...>
Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 13:49:41 -0700
Subject: Re: Bicycles on Shabbat
> How would riding a bicycle differ from using a children's carriage or a
> wheelchair on Shabbat (which appear to be generally accepted),
> especially for people for whom walking would be possible, if a burden.
> For that matter, would roller blades be permissible?
I vaguely recall some discussions on this topic in the 70's at "West
Coast Teacher's College" which was affliated with YU at the time. The
discussion(s) were purely on the academic level, no one was seriously
suggesting practical halacha, so the discussion got fairly far fetched
at times.
Some of the issues which I can still recall:
1) Was riding a bicycle akin to using a complex musical instrument which
might require repair, and thus forbidden?
2) Was the analogy to a wheelchair apt for a healthy person?
3) Sparking?
4) was it "shabbisdic?"
Recall that in the '70s the "standard" bicycle was a possibly
tempermental 10speed, with tires which frequently got flats (at least in
LA).
(1) There was some consensus that a "standard" bicycle would be
inappropriate due to (1), however it was suggested this was easily fixed
by construction of a 1 speed (or possibly a 3-5spd internally geared)
bicycle with solid tires. There were those who thought this was helpful
because it added a "shinui" to the mix, but I can't recall why they
thought that was helpful.
(2) was mixed, but many conceded that if a large segment of the San
Fernado Valley were covered by an Eruv, that (especially in the summer,
where the temp could reach 110d f) that a good arguement could be
applied to even a healthy person.
(3) the primary issue seemed to be metal toeclips. So it was observed by
some that this was akin to the issue of a possible furrow caused by
dragging a bench in a courtyard (accidental and incidental to the
movement) or could be eliminated by elimination of the toe clips.
(4) was a hot topic, but didn't seem very germane to a theoretical
discussion ;>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: <CARLSINGER@...> (Carl Singer)
Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 08:37:51 EDT
Subject: Re: Bicycles on Shabbat
I would like to reactivate a topic that appears to have been
inadequately addressed in previous mail-jewish archives: Within an
eruv, may one ride a bicycle on Shabbat?
How would riding a bicycle differ from using a children's carriage
or a wheelchair on Shabbat (which appear to be generally
accepted), especially for people for whom walking would be
possible, if a burden. For that matter, would roller blades be
permissible?
Rather than getting into ruts, repairs, abandonment, etc. Consider that
the person in a wheelchair has no other dignified way to get to shule --
crawling is out of the question -- regardless of how close to shule they
choose to live. If one chooses to live at a distance that precludes
walking (comfortably?) to shule then that choice, not the bicycle alone,
needs to be a focus of consideration.
Carl Singer
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Janet rosenbaum <jerosenb@...>
Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 09:55:03 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Bicycles on Shabbat
Ari Trachtenberg <trachten@...> writes:
> I would like to reactivate a topic that appears to have been
> inadequately addressed in previous mail-jewish archives: Within an eruv,
> may one ride a bicycle on Shabbat?
The mail-jewish archives includes a lot of "I once heard that"
discussion, so I'm hoping that this thread doesn't devolve into that.
http://www.ottmall.com/mj_ht_arch/v9/
http://www.ottmall.com/mj_ht_arch/v26/
My previous understanding of the issue is that the opinion that
permitted bicycles on yom tov/within an eruv was a daat yachid, but it
appears to be an opinion of much more significance among mizrachi Jews,
with Rav Ovadia inter alia seeming to permit:
http://www.judaic.org/halakhot/yomtob_bicycle.htm
I haven't checked all the sources inside, though.
This article also raises the issue recently discussed by Stan Tenen,
though, on the issue of halachic assessibility --- they note that the
Syrian community successfully warded off the influence of Conservative
Judaism by avoiding creating issurim where there didn't need to be,
which is an interesting contrast with the opinion of others here to
avoid lowering the Torah to people.
Janet
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Ari Trachtenberg <trachten@...>
Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 10:09:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Bicycles on Shabbat
>From: <BERNIEAVI@...> (Ed Goldstein)
>A rav I follow forbade bicycles, baby carriages and similar wheeled
>devices on Shabbat as a gezeirah mishum choresh when the wheel might
>cross a grassy area that is soft.
That's quite a steep prohibition, given that the vast majority of frum
Jews (with young children) use baby carriages within an eruv (and some
even outside of an eruv - though I'm not sure about the halachic support
there ... something about pushing rather than carrying the carriage?)!
Isn't there a principle of not enacting a decree that most people will
transgress?
Kol tuv,
Ari Trachtenberg, Boston University
http://people.bu.edu/trachten mailto:<trachten@...>
To: <mail-jewish@...>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Yaakov Fogelman <top@...>
Subject: Bicycles on Shabbos
I thought of two possible problems with bicycles on shabos, neither likely
with carriages:
1) the problem may be pseah daka, not to stride at a fast pace on shabbat;
one would have to examine the reasons for that prohibition itself, to see
if they apply to bikes.
2) Bicycles, especially those with many gears, may be analogous to musical
instruments, prohibited, as one may often adjust and "fix" them.
On the other hand, they are among my great pleasures in life and ofanei
hakodesh may yield far more and far higher oneg shabbat than a heavy plate
of chaunt, with far better after-effects! The one time I decided it would
be OK on yom tov, tho we had no eruv for shabbat in Brookline, I crashed
into a tree!
Yaakov Fogelman; just send an e-mail to get my weekly parasha studies,
English and/or Hebrew.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: <MDSternM7@...> (Martin D. Stern)
Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 05:12:59 EDT
Subject: Re: Dayan Westheim
<< The Star-K, on the other hand, does recommend Drambuie based on
information from the Dayan Westheim of the London Bet Din (LBD). >>
Dayan Westheim is a dayan on the Manchester Bet Din not the London
one. For our friends outside the UK with a weak grasp of geography,
Manchester is not in London!
Martin D. Stern
7, Hanover Gardens, Salford M7 4FQ, England
( +44(1)61-740-2745
email <mdsternm7@...>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Rabbi Y. H. Henkin <henkin@...>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 01:18:00 +0200
Subject: Kitzur maskanot Bnei Banim
[I have been remiss on adding the below referenced summary from Rav
Henkin to the mail-jewish web page. It has now been added to the
articles page and is reachable via a link on the mail page
(www.mail-jewish.org). Mod.]
In response to a number of suggestions, the summary is now a PDF
file, available upon request.
A 16-page printed Hebrew summary of the conclusions reached in all three
volumes of Resp. Bnei Banim, siman by siman, is available for no charge
except postage. It is not necessary to purchase the sefarim in order to
receive the summary. Those living in Israel should send two local stamps
(2.40 NIS) and those living abroad, a US $1 bill, to: Rabbi Yehuda
Henkin, 1 Nurock Street, 96109 Jerusalem, Israel.)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Janice Gelb <j_gelb@...>
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 23:07:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Kosherica Cruise?
Folks:
I am contemplating taking a kosher cruise to Alaska on a Celebrity
Cruise ship through Kosherica. I would very much appreciate it if anyone
who has any experience with this organization's cruises could let me
know what you thought about the trip. I've found a couple of newspaper
articles but they mainly talk about how great it is that such a thing as
kosher cruises exist but don't include reaction from people who actually
took such a trip.
Thanks!
Janice
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Shimon Lebowitz <shimonl@...>
Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 12:46:25 +0200
Subject: Pesach bazman hazeh?
I was quite upset by Rav Chipman's words:
> same or not in the days of the future Temple? (Asuming one isn't one of
> those crazies who think we should slaughter a Korban Pesah (passover
> sacrifice) today, perhaps tunneling under the Mosque of Omar, and damn
> the consequences, such as maybe igniting World War III. I hope Russell
> doesn't belong to that school of thought.)
There have been many good and sane Jews, including serious rabbis, who
wanted to offer the Korban Pesach bazman hazeh. If you wish to discuss
the details of where in the `azarah it must be slaughtered (without
tunneling under or blowing up mosques), and other details of the
scarifice, there might be interest in such a discussion.
However, starting off the topic with ad hominem attacks (or just plain
old fashioned name-calling - "crazies"?!) against people who put a lot
of effort and messirat nefesh into something that does have its
proponents (and opponents) and they believe is the good of klal yisrael,
does not look to me like the way we usually conduct ourselves on
mail-jewish. (Avi?)
"shelo nahagu kavod zeh bazeh!"
Chag Shavuot Sameach!
Shimon Lebowitz mailto:<shimonl@...>
Jerusalem, Israel mailto:<shimonl@...>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: <rubin20@...>
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 17:15:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Requirement to Tovel Aluminum vessels
> So we don't go about expanding minhagim or takanot willy nilly. For
> example, I believe R' Moshe paskaned that one doesn't have to tovel
> aluminum, as the ability to use aluminum is only a recent invention, so
> the takanot of hazal that required us to tovel metal obviosuly don't
> include it as hazal couldn't use it, so even now, one doesn't have to
> tovel it.
There is no such Rav Moshe. What he said is that since the posek lists
seven kinds of metal, aluminum not being one, obviously aluminum is not
susceptible to Tumah, and accordingly does not need Tveliah.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Leah Aharoni <leah25@...>
Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 11:44:06 +0200
Subject: Riding a bicycle on Shabbat
Ari Trachtenberg wrote:
How would riding a bicycle differ from using a children's carriage or a
wheelchair on Shabbat (which appear to be generally accepted),
especially for people for whom walking would be possible, if a burden.
For that matter, would roller blades be permissible?
A couple of years ago, when scooters became the latest craze in Israel,
Rav Eliezer Melamed made the following distinction. If a device is a
form of transportation, it can not be used on Shabbat. If it's a toy,
it's permissible.
Following this reasoning, one is not allowed to ride a bicycle, since
it's mostly used to get from one place to another. On the other hand, a
tricycle (which is almost identical but serves as a toy) can be used.
I think that child carriages and wheelchairs are special cases, since we
are not dealing with people who can comfortably walk on their own.
Leah Aharoni
English/Hebrew/Russian Translator
Telefax 972-2-9971146, Mobile 972-56-852571
Email <leah25@...>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
End of Volume 39 Issue 52
