Volume 40 Number 49
Produced: Thu Aug 28 6:18:12 US/Eastern 2003
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Abstain from any Involvement with Women (4)
[Gilad J. Gevaryahu, Alex Heppenheimer, Gilad J. Gevaryahu,
Alex Heppenheimer]
Commandment to Marry
[Barak Greenfield]
Kashrus in the U.S. Military
[Carl Singer]
Kosher Airline Food
[David Maslow]
Kosher and Halal (2)
[W. Baker, Ben Katz]
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From: <Gevaryahu@...> (Gilad J. Gevaryahu)
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 11:50:14 EDT
Subject: Abstain from any Involvement with Women
Alex Heppenheimer (MJv40n46) quoted my early post > I would like to call
the attention of the group to variation of this Mishnah as found in an
MS, a variation that makes a lot of sense. "al tarbeh sicha im ha-isha
KESHE-HI NIDA" (source: Ginze Mishnah, Katsh, Jerusalem 1970).< and
questioned it:
<<It sounds to me like the phrase "keshe-hi niddah" was simply a
marginal explanatory gloss that was mistakenly incorporated in the text
of this MS.>>
First one can view this MS at:
http://jnul.huji.ac.il/dl/talmud/mishna/showmish.asp?mishnanum=4&pereknum=0&ma
ecet=39
This could be, as Alex suggested "a marginal explanatory gloss," but
probably it is not. Note that this MS is the Kaufmann Codex, the most
accurate and important MS of the Mishnah.
Note that Rabbi Ovadia MiBartenura was aware of it (ad. loc.) and Rambam
sensed it in Perush haMishnayot when he said (ad. loc.) "It is well
known that a [routine] conversation [between men and women] is about
sexual relationship, and therefore, the Mishnah says that too much of it
[conversation] is prohibited" [my free translation-GJG]
Nida means distancing, and conversation bring to closeness, so during
the distancing period conversation was discouraged.
Gilad J. Gevaryahu
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From: Alex Heppenheimer <aheppenh@...>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 09:30:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Abstain from any Involvement with Women
Thanks for the note and the reference to the MS facsimile. Having viewed
it, I see, first of all, that my question (about how this would fit into
the "kal va-chomer" about another man's wife) is baseless: the phrase
"keshe-hi niddah" is inserted in the last clause of the mishnah ("kol
ha-marbeh sichah..."), not the earlier one ("al tarbeh sichah").
However, it seems to me that the MS actually bolsters my theory about
this phrase being an interpolation: note that these two words are
unvoweled, unlike the rest of the text. So it's quite possible that the
copyist (or the person who added the vowelization, if they were
different people) knew full well that these words are a gloss or
otherwise not part of the original mishnah.
The Bartenura indeed cites this explanation, but note that he doesn't
give it as a variant version ("it de-garsi") but merely as a variant
interpretation ("it di-mefarshi"); so it would seem that he, too, knew
of no Mishnah text that contained these words. As for the Rambam - I
don't have his commentary on hand, but it seems to me that what he says
could be equally well applied even to excessive conversation between
husband and wife when she's not in a niddah state: granted that sexual
relations are permitted (and, to some extent, mandated) during this
time, Chazal took a rather dim view of people who were too excessively
involved in such matters (see Berachot 22a), and Rambam himself
expresses similar views (see Hil. De'os 3:2 and 4:19, and especially
Hil. Issurei Bi'ah 22:11).
Kol tuv,
Alex
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From: <Gevaryahu@...> (Gilad J. Gevaryahu)
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 14:33:31 EDT
Subject: Re: Abstain from any Involvement with Women
Alex Heppenheimer suggests: <<However, it seems to me that the MS
actually bolsters my theory about this phrase being an interpolation:
note that these two words are unvoweled, unlike the rest of the text. So
it's quite possible that the copyist (or the person who added the
vowelization, if they were different people) knew full well that these
words are a gloss or otherwise not part of the original mishnah.>>
Not so. If one looks at the introduction to Kaufmann Codex at the same
site, one could read the following: "The vocalization of the text was
done by someone other than the scribe. The person who added the
vocalization amended the text according to a different tradition than
the original scribe "(My translation-GJG) This MS represents the "Nosach
Eretz Israel." The book Ginze Mishnah where I notice these added words
"keshe-hi nida" is, to the best of my memory, a different MS from
Russia.
So the fact that the person who added the vocalization left these two
words without vowels is a proof that in his source for vocalization
these two words were missing and therefore he was not sure how to vowel
them. So he used as a source for the vocalization a common Mishnah
based on Minhag Bavel, and as we know "keshe-hi nida" was missing there
(as it is missing from most current Mishnayot). That does not suggest
anything about a gloss. If, however, the original scribe would have
added the vocalization, then a gloss suggestion would hold water. By the
way, the person who added the vocalization made other emendation to the
text, which are also visible.
Gilad J. Gevaryahu
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From: Alex Heppenheimer <aheppenh@...>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 12:11:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Abstain from any Involvement with Women
Gilad comments in response to my observation about the words "keshe-hi
niddah" being unvoweled in the Kaufmann MS:
> So the fact that the person who added the vocalization left these two
> words without vowels is a proof that in his source for vocalization
> these two words were missing and therefore he was not sure how to
> vowel them.
That may be true in some other cases in this MS, such as on the
following page in mishnah 9 (mishnah 13 in most current editions), where
after the words "ketalah chayav" there are four unvoweled words: I'll be
the first to admit that I have no idea what they mean, or even how the
fourth one should be vocalized! So it's certainly possible that the
person who added the vocalization had the same problem. However, in the
case of the two words "keshe-hi niddah," it takes no great scholarship
to know how to vocalize them, regardless of whether they appeared in the
text he was using. (You would have to assume that he had no idea of his
own as to proper nikkud, and was just slavishly copying the vowels from
the text before him - a dubious proposition.)
In any case, about all that this proves is that, as Gilad states, the
vowelist's version of the Mishnah lacked these words. We have no way of
knowing, though, whether the original copyist's text had them either:
it's still quite possible that they were a marginal gloss which he
mistakenly inserted into the text, as is often the case in manuscript
copying. (It seems that the original copyist was indeed rather careless
in various places, such as in Avot 2:8 where he omitted the words
"Yochanan ben Zakkai, ve'elu hen," or at 4:19 where he omitted the word
"merubeh"; these are certainly not attributable to a different textual
tradition! So we need not assume that he was so expert as to be able to
distinguish between marginal corrections and explanatory glosses.)
Kol tuv,
Alex
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From: Barak Greenfield <docbjg@...>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 20:36:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Commandment to Marry
Russell J Hendel wrote:
> There is a positive commandment that if I want to have relations then
> I must first engage/marry the woman.
Where is this found?
Barak
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From: Carl Singer <csngr@...>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:51:43 -0400
Subject: Kashrus in the U.S. Military
As someone who spend over 30 years in the U.S. Army (active & reserve:
enlisted and commissioned) I find the following to be less then
convincingly accurate. Discounting the anonymous source and the heresay
elements of 1 person's story (and clearly a disgrunteld person) and it's
age (pre-Kosher MRE's) I've inserted a few comments >> within the text.
Carl A. Singer
COL OD USAR RETIRED
From: Anonymous
Subject: Kashrus in U.S. Military
I've recently heard some quite disturbing stories first-hand from
religious Jews who have been in the U.S. military. They told me that
the recruiters promised them that kosher food would be made available
and that in fact, kosher food *is* available to all military
installations if the proper authorities request it, however these Jewish
individuals were thwarted by officers at the base level and were thus
denied kosher food for the entirety of their "boot camp" training.
>>there are many non-Jews in the military who are religiously orthodox and
>>they tend to strongly support and aid people in their religious
>>observance. For example, when I wore a Yarmulke while not in uniform it
>>was never a problem, and sometimes resulted in many positive responses.
>>going through basic training is harsh and rigorous -- but a chaplain's
>>letter will provide you access to kosher food. (My letter back in 1970 at
>>Fort Campbell, KY, home of the 101st Airborne, came from a Presbyterian
>>minister.) I had access to a trailer with food provided by the kind folks
>>in Nashville, TN. The Jewish Welfare Board also has food available.
>>on the other hand there are lots of malingerers in basic training. I
>>recall a fellow with a traditionally Jewish name -- let's call him
>>Greenberg -- from New York, repleat w/ NY accent, etc. Who signed out for
>>Friday night services and instead was found at a payphone calling his
>>girlfriend -- made it doubly difficult for all of us. One cannot use
>>religion as a "crutch" or an excuse in an "all volunteer" military.
>>in general one CANNOT leave base during boot camp. Bootcamp is a 24 x 7 x
>>8 week event. (I was, however, given the opportunity to leave (to daven
>>w/ a nearby congregation) during Shavuot which fell during my 8 week
>>camp.)
>>after training, upon being assigned to my permanent duty station I
>>received permission to live off post (in an apartment for which I paid,
>>but for which I got a housing allowance) in order to keep a kosher
>>kitchen. This required wavers from my commanding officer based on my
>>keeping kosher (below a certain rank one is required to live on post when
>>post housing is available.)
After boot camp they were able to receive kosher food, but only because
of increased permission to leave the base and get food from civilian
stores (which the Jewish soldiers had to pay for, of course). One
soldier even told me of repeatedly fainting during exercises. The
response of the military was *not* to relent on providing kosher food to
the soldier but rather to administer *intervenous* fluids on a regular
basis. This story is frankly so shocking I would have a hard time
believing it were it not told to me first hand. (Incidentally, I am
purposely leaving out any identifying information about the soldiers
involved, so if anyone on the list happens to know the same people,
please don't add anything [service branch, location, etc.] that would
help identify them).
>>I don't believe it as told without context. The above makes a good
>>story but is likely nonsense as excerpted -- first of all, what kind
>>of post-bootcamp training was he involved with. Drinking plenty of
>>fluids is necessary for heavy physical activity -- the Army maintains
>>a strict water discipline, one doesn't want soldiers fainting or dying
>>due to the heat (it was over 100 F on occasion at Fort Campbell --
>>even worse today in Iraq) if this soldier was not eating enough and
>>not drinking enough and thus requiring fluids as stated, then he
>>probably
These stories hapenned 5-10 years ago. If anyone
has more recent information or any clarifying information, I'd be
interested to hear of it.
>>I'm not sure the relevance of something that happened 5 or 10 years ago.
>>Today there are Kosher MRE's -- unfortunately, mostly consumed by Muslims.
>>On a related point, West Point (during "Beast Barracks" -- the especially
>>rigorous initiation into the academy for new cadets) has a Jewish Chaplain
>>there to provide support and counciling.
>>My niece is currently serving in the Air Force -- she had kosher food
>>availble to her when she was in Kirgistan (both from Air Force channels
>>and from external sources -- family, Jewish Welfare Board, and NCSY
>>chapters that took her on as a project) Today, stateside, she has a
>>kosher kitchen available to her -- when her rank & time in grade are
>>sufficient for her to move off post she will do so.
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From: David Maslow <maslowd@...>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 12:40:28 -0400
Subject: Kosher Airline Food
While I have had generally (although certainly not 100%) good luck with
getting kosher food while traveling by air, the issue is gradually
becoming moot. Meals in general are being phased out on all but cross
country and international flights. In addition, several airlines have
recently announced that "special" meals would no longer be provided at
all for domestic flights. Bottom line--bring your own and hope the Coke
is cold.
David Maslow
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From: W. Baker <wbaker@...>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:29:02 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Kosher and Halal
When my sons were at Boy Scout camp. They went to the kosher one
Kunatah at Ten Mile River in Narrowsburg NY. I recall there was a
Muslim scout troop that used the same camp because of the availability
of the kosher food. I have no idea of what kind of Muslims they were,
but this was quite a few yers ago before the intensity of fundementalism
that is so common now was prevalent in the US, at least.
Wendy Baker
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From: Ben Katz <bkatz@...>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:27:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Kosher and Halal
>One differentiation between *Halal* and *Kosher* is that before slaughter,
>*Halal* requires the praying to Allah. *Kosher* does not require a prayer to God
>before slaughtering.
An interesting tangent to this fact (and after all, what are
conversations or discussions without tangents?) is that Rav Kook zt'l
was once asked by a shochet whether he could say "Allah Achbar" before
slaughtering meat for his Moslem clients. Rav Kook answered in the
affirmative because Moslems are "as montheistic" as Jews and that saying
"God is great" in any language is not an issue.
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End of Volume 40 Issue 49
