Volume 41 Number 89 Produced: Mon Jan 19 6:13:15 US/Eastern 2004 Subjects Discussed In This Issue: Administrivia - mail-jewish spoofed message with virus sent out [Avi Feldblum] Ari vs. Aryeh [Arthur Altman] Day School Costs [<Smwise3@...>] Kollel [Esther Posen] Kollel -- reprise / tzedukah [Carl Singer] Numbers [Bill Bernstein] Parental Responsibility [Jonathan B. Horen] Shule Operations [Carl Singer] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Avi Feldblum <mljewish@...> Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 05:29:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: Administrivia - mail-jewish spoofed message with virus sent out Hello All, It looks like a spoofed message was sent out last night to the group which contained a virus. The message originated outside of shamash, but had my email addressed as a forged address, so the server sent it out. I am following up with Shamash. In addition, I thought the list was set up to discard any attachments (the unix tool I use to process the list cannot handle any attachments, so I never send out attachments), I will correct that today. Avi Feldblum mail-jewish Moderator <mljewish@...> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Arthur Altman <arthur_altman@...> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 09:56:42 -0600 Subject: Ari vs. Aryeh Not precisely on topic, but thought you might enjoy this from Ari Fleischer, the former Press Secretary to President Bush, who gave the keynote speech at a Dallas Jewish Federation Annual Campaign dinner the other night. He related how when he first went to Austin to join then-Governor Bush's staff, none of these Texans had ever heard the name, "Ari." At first they thought he was calling himself, "R.E.", a la "J.R." Soon afterwards Governor Bush declared that he was to be known as, "Ari Bob." Yee-hah! All the best, Arthur Billy, aka Zvi Aaron Billy, Dallas, Texas ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: <Smwise3@...> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 17:59:21 EST Subject: Re: Day School Costs << The answer is, the funds come from our tuition and our fundraising efforts. At most schools my children have attended parents are required to raise additional funds over and above the tuition. Yes, this is a burden. Yes, I often resent it. But I have never thought that the schools are profiting from our tuition. Nadine Bonner >> I am sorry you are appalled, but I am also not so certain that there aren't any schools that make money. Yes, we also have a building fund and a dinner requirement, plus we pay for every project the kids work on and trips they go on. Probably your response could have included that not all students pay full tuition or any tuition, as an earlier bunch of posts here stated. But last I heard, the teachers and staff, including maintenance, aren't exactly the highest paid of people. S.Wise ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Esther Posen <eposen@...> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 10:26:50 -0600 Subject: RE: Kollel Some thoughts about the rabid anti kollel perspective: Meir Shinar Says: "The Rambam's position is well known even if ignored" I believe the Rambam's position includes rabbonim, rebbeim and the like. This position appears to be non-viable for most of us. Meir says: "The model of universal kollel is not a sustainable one, which is why it was never held until today. It therefore is incompatible with the view of the torah as a torat chayim." I think the problem everyone is having with kollel is that it seems to be working fine despite reasonable expectations that it should collapse under its own weight. We have many families with a third generation starting their kollel careers. So it shouldn't work at all and anybody earning $150,000 in computers should be set forever but that is not what seems to be happening. There is a g-d you know. Meir says "The role of the kollel in maintaining or destroying the Orthodox community can be debated. Yeshaya Lebowits recounts a conversation he had with Agnon, where Agnon asked what happened to the tremendous power that Torah had exercised over the Jewish community and people - and RYL answered that Torah became talmud torah - rather than being the concern of every Jew on some level, it became a profession. One might argue over the historical reality, but there is much truth to that argument. This concern - that by paying for torah, one denigrates it and reduces it to a profession - is not novel, and is quite explicit in the rambam's discussion. I believe that despite all the non-religious Jews in Israel, the simple fact is that Torah is undergoing a renaissance not a death spiral since the holocaust. Torah had very little power in Europe. They were schlepping guys out of the Mir and into the Communist party. And the average religous male and female person today knows far more about Torah then ever before. Torah has indeed become available and integral to the entire Orthodox jewish community. There are no villages like the one my grandfather grew up in where the Rov new kitzur shulchan oruch. And again, nobody gets paid very much for sitting in kollel. I am not sure why I care about Agnon's excuse for not being religous. We all have our excuses and our chips on our shoulder. Meir says "Furthermore, the position of kollel today is different than 100 years ago, or even thirty years ago. Rav Salanter argued that when a Jew learns in Kovno, he stops a Jew in Paris from converting. Today, when a Jew learns in Bne Brak,..." I say that, one of the problems with this line of reasoning is that it is not being supported by anyone of the stature of Rav Salanter. The other problem is that Torah holds up the world in a meta-physical sense and has meta-physical powers so learning torah does not always have to be supported by rational arguments" Meir says that "in America, the role of kollel is different - but the kollel is not viewed by the general community as wonderful role model, but rather as a danger that they hope their kids won't be sucked into. This leads to an ambiguous relationship and concern about the education of their kids - hardly the shining light that is maintaining the community." I say that it depends what you consider the general community and the "general community" Meir is refering to is losing the battle of defining the norm which is why they create their rabid anti-kollel response. They can throw in the towel or not throw in the towel but given the size of the chassidi and hareidi/kollel community in America how can they proport to be the general community? Meir says "even in the states, it is not only a private choice. The community has limited funds, that are stretched to the limit - ask most day school principals whether there are excess funds. The establishment of a kollel in a community draws funds from the existing funds and donors, as well as bringing in families who will make extra demands (outside of the direct funding that the kollel itself draws) on the existing social welfare system. Esther says, "there are far more kollel children in Bais Faiga and the Lakewood Cheder in Lakewood New Jersey then there probably are all over the United States. The community kollel represents a tiny minority of kollel learners in the United States. And actually most day school principles resent that when there are enough "frummy" kids in town they open their own schools. Which one can argue drains funds but usually the funding source is different... Esther Posen ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Carl Singer <casinger@...> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 07:25:55 -0500 Subject: Kollel -- reprise / tzedukah It seems to all discussants that the kollel as an institution is not financially self sustaining -- that is it needs external funding to keep going. Some of that "external" funding is targeted funding from relatives. (I.e., a parent or in-law of subsidizes a kollel family and perhaps also the kollel.) Some is direct donations that (no one has argued otherwise?) are considered halachically to be tzedukah. When the kollel funding is in the form of a forced subsidy or a "tax" on the community at large be it directly such as school "scholarships" or otherwise -- then we have a potential for conflict. More than that there now is the issue of choice. I have a dollar bill in my hand that I am going to give to tzedukah. Do I give it to the kollel who's members or former members (graduates?) have enhanced my community (or the Jewish community at large) and my life -- do I give it to the hungry? -- do I give it to the poor? -- do I give it to a kollel who's members display an elitism, a lack of derech eretz, a sense of entitlement, etc.) Halachically, when I give my dollar to tzedukah is must be with a smile on my face and a warm heart. Carl Singer ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bill Bernstein <bbernst@...> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 08:58:03 -0600 Subject: Re: Numbers In support of Carl Singer's comments on numbers, I remember when I was growing up in NY there was a "personality" around who was called "The Numbers Man." I dont remember his name or other details. I believe he died about 1980. But his "shtick" so to speak was to connect disparate numbers to prove some point. So, the number of seats in Yankee stadium, the number of steps in the Statue of Liberty and so were all grist for his theories. One of his theories was that he was Moshiach (yes, of course he was Jewish). After he died one radio show interviewed a mathematician and asked about the amazing coincidences that the Numbers Man came up with. The mathematician responded that while it seems amazing there are in fact billions of numbers of different things in the universe so it is not surprising at all that some of them should correlate in one way or another. I would think the same would hold true for many gematrias: it is no surprise that some of them work given the many many possibilities. Kol tuv, Bill Bernstein Nashville TN ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan B. Horen <horen@...> Subject: Re: Parental Responsibility >>[is supporting one's children's education tzedakah?] >>My child support payments were deemed to be so (Baruch Sh'patarni!) >>JONATHAN B. HOREN UNIX SYSTEMS ADMINISTRATOR > I find this comment, both in fact and in attitude, to be shocking. [snip] I responded to Leah offline. > Furthermore, I am troubled that a father would exclaim joyously to be > free of caring for his children. My "Baruch Sh'patarni!" was, perhaps, unclear. It meant: 1. Thank G-d that I was able to make the payments, and more, for more than 11 years, neither miss nor be late with a single one, and still be able to "have a life". 2. Thank G-d that my daughters are grown and self-sufficient. 3. THANK G-D that I no longer have to contribute even a single agora to maintaining their mother, paying her overdraft at the bank, or her telephone bills, all in order to make sure that my daughters had a roof over their heads, food in their stomachs, and clothes on their backs, despite #1. The Rabbis asked: "Why does a divorce cost so much?" and a Bas Kol min-Shamayim answered, "Because it's worth it!" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Carl Singer <casinger@...> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 07:51:59 -0500 Subject: Shule Operations I'm merging themes in three recent groups of postings: 1 - dress code for the Shaliach Zibbor (and others?) 2 - slow davener 3 - being denied entry into the shule First -- 3 short excerpts: 1. "The problem arises when there is no formal statement of requirements, and then incidents such as that described by David Waysman might occur - the gabbai or someone else decides that a certain form of dress is inappropriate, even though nothing has been said about it previously. Of course, if the previous LOR had ruled accordingly, then there is no point of argument." 2. The Slow Davener >> Addressing only the second point -- as we have such a person in our >> congregation. >> >> If this person davens loudly enough for others to hear and is always "on a >> different page" what is the appropriate response to this disruptive >> situation? And who, pray tell, rules that *anyone* is allowed to daven that loudly, especially at a minyan? 3. The security guard seemed to be saying that we weren't allowed in with >cameras, and that if we wanted to come in to daven we would have to >abandon all our photographic equipment in the street. Judging from the tone of your post, it sounds like you weren't treated well at all ... which is inappropriate regardless of the validity of denying your entrance. ---------- All three really reflect how shules (which are social groups of individuals - not "just" buildings) set boundaries, make rules of the road and communicate / enforce those rules of the road. And how we as individuals react to same. 1 - Points out an authority issue that frequently occurs during times of flux. In the example, there is no current Rabbi -- but even when there is but rules / customs are changing -- it's not uncommon for someone to quote an authority figure (in their absence) as the source for their ruling. As often as not upon checking with that authority figure one finds that he was misquoted or "I never said such a thing." Some people find it easier to assert their will by claiming that they're "just following orders." or "The Rabbi said so." As the shule "rules" change (or did they) lots of confusion and dispute. 2 - Different people have different levels of tolerance and many people find it awkward to deal with things that impose upon them. There are people whose behavior in shule (lets say for the sake of discussion - unknowingly and without malice) adversely impacts others. They daven too loudly, their kids are noisy, they take up two seats with their Tallis Bag. Some people find it difficult to respond to such situations - either directly (confrontation?) or indirectly (delegation?) via the shule "management." Yes, no one should daven so loudly as to disturb others. Are you going to go over to that guy and tell him? Will he thank you or get in your face? Why not just grab him by the scruff of the neck and throw him out? 3 - It seems that one of the posters had a bad time, and another (later) poster found it acceptable -- and we're all now trying to figure out (a) the motives of the shule for making its rules and (b) trying to determine if the security guard correctly conveyed in tone and texture the message that this shule was trying to get across. Two things: Different people FEEL differently about such situations -- does security at a building (or the airport) threaten you and inconvenience you, or does it make you feel more comfortable knowing that you are being protected. Some people REACT differently to such situations. Some stalk off in anger. Some would negotiate an acceptable compromise either with the security guard or other shule authorities (hey, if I leave my cameras on the street they'll get stolen -- can I lock them in your office?) and others would chalk it up as a lesson learned. I would suggest that disagreements and incidents that take place in shule are often as not more social / organizational in nature than truly halachic. Even when the issue is specifically halachic, its the interpretation and communication and resultant interaction that becomes the issue. Carl Singer ----------------------------------------------------------------------
End of Volume 41 Issue 89