Volume 45 Number 46
Produced: Tue Nov 2 23:22:09 EST 2004
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Adon Olam and Yidgal
[Mimi Markofsky]
Hillel responsive to frum jews? (was? Modern orthodox)
[Rhonda Stein]
Honey (5)
[Irwin Weiss, C. Halevi, Art Kamlet, <SPOOCH81@...>, Ira
Bauman]
Kabbalat Shabbat
[Gil Student]
Mikveh
[Yitzchak Scott-Thoennes]
Names for HaShem
[Andy Goldfinger]
Old Brandy
[Chaim Tatel]
Rashi and simplicity
[A Simple Jew]
Talmud torah and reading aloud
[Dov Teichman]
T'hilim and Kohelet
[Yisrael & Batya Medad]
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From: <AUNTIEFIFI@...> (Mimi Markofsky)
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 17:56:14 -0500
Subject: RE: Adon Olam and Yidgal
My father died during chol hamoed Succos. Immediately after saying
Viduy (sp?), our rabbi said certain Tehillim with us at my father's
bedside. We ended with Adon Olam and Yigdal. This all occurred prior
to my father's death but after we knew there was nothing else that could
be done for him. Since this was my first experience with an immediate
family members' death I was surprised by saying Adon Olam & Yigdal. Is
this a minhag in all communities or just the way our rabbi handled it?
(I did find it extremely comforting as did my family).
Mimi Markofsky
<Auntiefifi@...>
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From: Rhonda Stein <rhondastein@...>
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 17:39:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Hillel responsive to frum jews? (was? Modern orthodox)
When I was at MIT in the 70's I asked the Hillel rabbi for a letter to
excuse me from the requirement to take swimming. "Why", he asked, "is
it on Shabbos?"
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From: Irwin Weiss <irwin@...>
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 19:59:16 -0500
Subject: Honey
Israel Caspi, in connection with the issue of the Kashrut of honey,
writes:
> For sure, they [rabbanim]knew that the bee was somehow involved in
> honey production but had they understood that thehoney is actually
> produced in and expelled from the bee's body, it would have been
> judged to be non-kosher, just like any other food (milk, eggs, etc.)
> that comes from a non-kosher animal.
Well, there is one more example of a substance that comes from a
non-Kosher animal which is yet Kosher.....................Milk from a
human is frequently consumed by the infant offspring of the human. It
is, beyond any doubt, Kosher, while humans are not themselves Kosher.
Irwin E. Weiss <irwin@...>
Baltimore, Maryland
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From: C. Halevi <c.halevi@...>
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 16:27:26 -0600
Subject: Honey
Shalom, All:
The subject of honey being kosher was previously discussed in
mail-jewish at least as far back as 1997, but IMHO since we have new
readers it's kosher for us to reinvent the hive.
Reb Israel Caspi writes, >>FWIW, I learned that the honey mentioned in
the Torah was almost always date honey, not bee's honey.<<
With all respect to my learned colleague Reb Israel, permit me to cite
the Ta'Na'CH (Torah, Prophets and "Writings"). And from all the
scholarly and popular info I've seen elsewhere, bee honey was almost
universally known in **very** ancient times. Check out D'vareem
(Deuteronomy) 32:13, where it mentions honey in craggy rocks. You don't
find date trees growing in rock crags, but you do find beehives. Also,
the commentary by Rabbi Hertz in the Soncino Humash speaks about honey
culture in ancient Israel.
Check out www.jewishencyclopedia.com and you'll see this quote: >> Honey
("debash") is frequently mentioned in connection with milk, and is
probably the ordinary bee's honey; that flowing of itself out of the
honeycomb ("nofet ha-'ufim") was especially relished (Ps. xix. 11;
Prov. xvi. 24).<<
In the Books of the Ni'vee'eem (Prophets), we see the episode of
Sheemshon (Samson) and the honey in Shofteem (Judges) 14:5-10. In the
short time he was gone, bees had made a home in the carcass of the lion
he killed and produced honey, which our hero then ate. And, mind you,
Sheemshon was not just any Jew: he was a Nazeer (under holy vows). So
obviously, even in the time of the Tanach, Jews knew about and ate honey
from bees, not just dates. (And as <chips@...> noted, Yehonatan
(Jonathan) ate bee's honey straight from the comb. (See Shmuel (Samuel
I), 14:27, where it specifically says Yonatan ate bee honey.)
Reb Caspi raises an interesting point when he says >>I also learned --
from a reliable Orthodox source (who probably does not want to have his
name mentioned in a public forum such as mail-jewish) -- that our
forefathers did not correctly understand (forgive the heresy) the
biological process by which bee's honey is produced. For sure, they
knew that the bee was somehow involved in honey production but had they
understood that the honey is actually produced in and expelled from the
bee's body, it would have been judged to be non-kosher, just like any
other food (milk, eggs, etc.) that comes from a non-kosher animal.
(Which begs the question of why, now that we do understand the process,
we continue to consider bee's honey to be kosher.)<<
I think the answer here is two-fold:
1. Because Israel is described in the Torah as "Eretz zavat halav
u'dvash (a land flowing with milk and honey)" our traditions/laws
concluded that honey is an exception.
2. David Charlap pointed out back in '97 that a cow is meat, but it
produces kosher milk. Chickens are (rabbinically) meat, but their eggs
are pareve. Ergo, it's not such a big leap for honey from an unkosher
bee to be considered kosher.
As for our Sages not understanding the actual biological process that
bees use to produce honey - hey, given all the biblical proofs that we
ate it all along, I'm sure they would have come up with a different
explanation to permit bee honey. Either that, or they would have
declared it a "TaYKU" (an explanation to be given when Eleeyahu [Elijah]
comes again to herald the Mashiah's arrival).
Yeshaya (Charles Chi) Halevi
<halevi@...>
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From: <Artkamlet@...> (Art Kamlet)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 01:21:33 EST
Subject: Re: Honey
I actually do not believe that honey would be considered kosher if
it was "discovered" after the time of the Neviim. I do not doubt
that it is indeed kosher, as Yehonoson ate it , and from the comb
itself no less.
Perhaps Jonathan knew that much earlier Samson had set the example?
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From: <SPOOCH81@...>
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 16:53:06 EST
Subject: Re: Honey
I also learned -- from a reliable Orthodox source (who probably
does not want to have his name mentioned in a public forum such as
mail-jewish) -- that our forefathers did not correctly understand
(forgive the heresy) the biological process by which bee's honey
is produced. For sure, they knew that the bee was somehow
involved in honey production but had they understood that the
honey is actually produced in and expelled from the bee's body,
The gemara in bechoros 5b discusses the issue of honey from bees.
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From: <Yisyis@...> (Ira Bauman)
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 17:44:14 EST
Subject: Re: Honey
Many years ago, someone showed me an Ibn Ezra (I believe) on a phrase in
the tanakh that referred to bee honey. It was about the permissibility
of consuming the honey but the phraseology of the Ibn Ezra was unusual in
that it was in a fashion that could be read up, down and across or some
such arrangement. If anyone has any knowledge where this could be found,
I would appreciate if you could post it.
Ira Bauman
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From: Gil Student <gil_student@...>
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 20:35:31 -0500
Subject: Re: Kabbalat Shabbat
The Rema, in Darkhei Moshe, OC 261:3, writes that the custom in his
region was not to recite any mizmorim before Shabbos (i.e. Kabbolas
Shabbos).
Gil Student
www.YasharBooks.com
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From: Yitzchak Scott-Thoennes <sthoenna@...>
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 04:07:22 -0800
Subject: Re: Mikveh
Chana Luntz wrote:
> What I find interesting about this teshuva, although it is it is hard to
> put my finger on it exactly, but there is a flavour of leniency about
> this psak that I generally have not seen in other sources regarding
> going to mikvah on the seventh day, even close to night, almost an
> assumption that it is a normal thing to go on a Friday night before
> candle lighting on the seventh day because it is often difficult to go
> later, and almost the sense that Rav Moshe is reconciling a certain
> degree of prevailing custom with the sources.
In Rav Forst's Laws of Niddah Vol 2 (Artscroll, 2002), he mentions such
a custom in some communities on Friday night (p. 251; 33 A 2 b i).
I found his discussion of timing of mikvah to also have a very
interesting flavor; beginning on page 245 with the statement "The
tevilah of a niddah must be done at night and must be done after the
shivah nekiyim are completed", and ending 10 pages later with discussion
of the circumstances and sources for doing tevilah on the seventh day
and returning home even before nightfall. It felt very clear to me that
Rav Forst himself, while reporting the more lenient opinions, much
preferred the his starting point.
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From: Andy Goldfinger <Andy.Goldfinger@...>
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 07:24:40 -0500
Subject: Names for HaShem
A few days ago, I was very worried about something. As I got into bed,
I had the feeling that I wanted my mommy to be there to make it all
okay. Indeed, I remember being comforted by my mother in ways different
than my father.
We often use the image of "father" in referring to HaShem, for example,
"Avinu She B'Shamayim" [our father who is in heaven]. One of the
gedolim (I don't remember who) was once heard to be asking HaShem for
help in understanding a Talumic passage, and he called HaShem "Tate"
[father, in Yiddish].
I know that we use the term Scheninah, which is feminine, to refer to
HaShem's presence. However, I can't recall ever using the image of
HaShem as our mother.
Can anyone comment on this?
-- Andy Goldfinger
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From: Chaim Tatel <chaimyt@...>
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 17:09:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Old Brandy
I was cleaning out my father's basement and found two old bottles from Israel:
1) Salam Brandy
80 proof
W.E.S.T. Ltd.
Netanya
Kosher L'Pesach
2) HaMartef Old Brandy
80 proof
HaMartef Wine Cellars Ltd.
Both bottles are from the late '60s or early '70s.
Both say Kosher L'Pesach.
Is there any way to verify the kashrus of these brandies?
I checked Google and couldn't find anything on either company.
Kol Tuv,
Chaim
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From: A Simple Jew <asimplejew@...>
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 04:54:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Rashi and simplicity
I have a question about Rashi's commentary on the Chumash.
Rashi said that the purpose of his commentary is to explain the simple
meaning of the text. Yet there are many times in his commentary on the
Chumash where he provides a detailed analysis of grammar and etymology
of words.
My question is how is this keeping in line with just explaining the
simple meaning of the text?
I ask this question because I sincerely do not know the answer to this
question. I am not asking it to denigrate the greatness of Rashi.
A Simple Jew
http://asimplejew.blogspot.com/
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From: <DTnLA@...> (Dov Teichman)
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 19:21:58 -0500
Subject: Re: Talmud torah and reading aloud
<<Could anyone confirm, with a reference if possible, whether there is
any respected halachic opinion that to fulfill the Mitzvah of Talmud
Torah one has to actually say the words aloud?>>
Shulchan Aruch Hilchos Brachos rules that one may learn mentally
(hirhur) without saying birchos hatorah. The GRA argues and holds that
even for hirhur one must make birchos hatorah. On first glance this
would seem to that very argument; certainly saying the words is
considered learning, but the argument is whether thinking is considered
learning too.
However, the case can also be made that their argument was merely
regarding the requirement for birchos hatorah however all would agree on
a mitzva level that mental learning is learning.
See Shulchan Aruch Harav Hilchos Talmud Torah 2:12 who discusses this
issue specifically and rules that learning that can be done verbally
should be done verbally but there an aspect of learning that involves
conteplation and that is a fulfillment as well.
Dov Teichman
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From: Yisrael & Batya Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 13:46:23 +0200
Subject: T'hilim and Kohelet
I've been posting notes from classes I'm taking in T'hilim and Kohelet.
http://me-ander.blogspot.com/ If anyone's interested in reading the
notes, please do. Comments are welcome. We just had the third lesson
on Sunday. It's a boker limud for women in the area. The teacher is
HaRav Nissan Ben-Avraham.
Batya
http://shilohmusings.blogspot.com/
http://me-ander.blogspot.com/
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End of Volume 45 Issue 46
