Volume 47 Number 99
Produced: Mon May 23 5:25:36 EDT 2005
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
The Great Divide (4)
[Stuart Pilichowski, Stuart Pilichowski, Joel Rich, David
Charlap]
The "Great Divide"
[Martin Stern]
Kaddish
[Janice Gelb]
Qaddish
[Ira L. Jacobson]
Women Saying Kaddish / Kaddish said by those who are not an Ovel
[Martin Stern]
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From: Stuart Pilichowski <cshmuel@...>
Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 15:18:02 +0000
Subject: The Great Divide
>From: Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...>
>Stuart Pilichowski <cshmuel@...> stated the following on Sun, 08
>May 2005 18:29:55 +0000:
>>"Only frum Jews can be counted towards a minyan," he said.
>>Sorry, that's not my brand of Yiddishkeit or menschlichkeit. Am I
>>wrong? Am I a cause of the "great divide?"
> You seem to be "wrong" if we accept the Mishna Berura as "right."
> See MB 55:46-47, where he enumerates the types of `aveirot that
> disqualify one from being counted in a minyan.
My own viewpoint is that while the Mishna Brurah may indeed have written
that, but if you were to ask the shylah to the MB he would've answered
differently - practically speaking. I believe the MB, like most halacha
seforim are guides; Rabbonim are for practical halacha.
>> "I won't daven in a shul that doesn't offer the tefillah for the
>> Medinah or for the IDF."
> Even a weekday ma`ariv? Could you give more details? Are there some
>times that you will and others that you won't? Do you then expect some
>people to refrain from praying in your shul because there such prayers are
>"offered"?
I prefer to daven with people that have the same hashkafa as myself.
Time of day doesn't matter. I don't expect anything of people. I would
hope that they follow the truth as they see it and not be hypocritical.
kol tuv,
Stuart Pilichowski
Mevaseret Zion, Israel
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From: Stuart Pilichowski <cshmuel@...>
Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 15:47:48 +0000
Subject: The Great Divide
>From: Doctor Klafter <doctorklafter@...>
>>From: Stuart Pilichowski <cshmuel@...>
>>There are many shades of non-observancy. I'd rather eat in the home of
>>the non-observant who claims they keep a strictly kosher home/kitchen
>>than risk embarrassing them by refraining from eating off their plates
>>no matter how diplomatic I might be in explaining my hesitation.
>"Ed echad ne'eman be-issurim" (the rule in halakha that we may presume that
>when a Jew claims that food is kosher he or she is being truthful) does not
>apply to Jews who violate the Sabbath publicly. Did you receive a halakhic
>ruling from a halakhic authority that this is an acceptable method to
>avoiding interpersonal conflicts, or is this your own private policy?
I'm under the impression that Jews violating Shabbat publicly refers
only to Jews that violate Shabbat out of spite. I take it for granted
that Jews today that shop or go to the movies on Shabbat don't do it
because they don't believe that Hashem is the Creator. (They do it out
of convenience and for fun. No religious philosophy involved.)
>How about the days/weeks immediately following pesach? Would you eat in
>the same home of unobservant Jews who presumably did not sell their
>chametz for pesach? Chametz she-avar alav ha-pesach is forbidden
>de-rabbanan? There is no dispensation from this halakha that I am aware
>of for the sake of not hurting someone's feelings. Are you willing to
>transgress this halakha for the sake of avoiding embarrassing a friend
>or relative?
I'll turn the question around: Have YOU asked this shylah to a Rov? I
haven't, but would expect a practicing Rov to explain HOW to eat in the
house of one who didn't sell their chometz.
Isn't hurting someone's feelings a d'oryetah?
>>I won't daven in a shul that doesn't offer the tefillah for the Medinah or
>>for the IDF.
>Do you mean to say that if you had Haredi relatives who were making a
>bar-mitzvah across the Jerusalem Forest in the Har Nof synagogue of the
>Bostonner Hassidim, you not attend because their synagogue does not
>recite a tefilla for the medina? What happened to your prerogative of
>avoiding hurt feelings. Does this apply only to unobservant Jews? Or
>only to non-Haredim?
Yes. Life is tough if you follow your beliefs.
I think the Harediim have tough skin and would understand my absence.
>>I was recently at the airport for a flight to Israel and a fellow tried
>>organizing a minyan. I noticed after about a half an hour he was only
>>going after people with kippot. I said to him that most of the people here
>>even if they're not wearing kippot are Jewish and would probably love to
>>be asked to participate in a minyan. He looked at me like I was from
>>another planet. "Only frum Jews can be counted towards a minyan," he
>>said.
>Of course you realize that it is possible to find all sorts of people
>from any movement or shade of ideology who say stupid things. This is a
>classic "straw man" argument, and does not support your position.
"My position"? - My position is that there's too much rigidity going on
in the name of halacha. I believe the halacha would side with my
position of being more tolerant towards the uneducated.
>>Sorry, that's not my brand of Yiddishkeit or menschlichkeit. Am I
>>wrong?
Yes, I believe you are wrong. You are putting politics and personal
feelings ahead of halakha. What entitles you to do this?
I believe my personal feelings are a vital element of the halacha.
Oftentimes the answer to a shylah will depend on a person's feelings.
Stuart Pilichowski
Mevaseret Zion, Israel
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From: Joel Rich <JRich@...>
Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 09:02:26 -0400
Subject: The Great Divide
>> Am I a cause of the "great divide?"
>Yes, I believe that you are the cause of the great divide. You are
>putting personal ideology before halakha.
>
>Nachum Binyamin (Andrew Bennett) Klafter, MD University of Cincinnati
><doctorklafter@...>
Without expressing an opinion on the topic at hand, might I point out a
famous story about R' Chaim Soloveitchik - that he was "said to be" more
careful about eating in the sukkah on shmeini atzeret than on the 1st
night of sukkot because of the practice of the chassidim of not eating
(incorrectly so according to R'CS correctly according to them) in the
sukkah on shmini atzeret.
IMHO personal ideology is always a factor in halacha, not necessarily
determinative, but definitely a factor.
KT
Joel Rich
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From: David Charlap <shamino@...>
Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 10:25:44 -0400
Subject: Re: The Great Divide
Doctor Klafter wrote:
> Stuart Pilichowski wrote:
>> There are many shades of non-observancy. I'd rather eat in the home of
>> the non-observant who claims they keep a strictly kosher home/kitchen
>> than risk embarrassing them by refraining from eating off their plates
>
> How about the days/weeks immediately following pesach? Would you eat in
> the same home of unobservant Jews who presumably did not sell their
> chametz for pesach? Chametz she-avar alav ha-pesach is forbidden
> de-rabbanan? There is no dispensation from this halakha that I am aware
> of for the sake of not hurting someone's feelings. Are you willing to
> transgress this halakha for the sake of avoiding embarrassing a friend
> or relative?
I'm quite disturbed to read this.
You are willing to deliebrately transgress several Torah laws (like
resppecting one's parents, loving one's neighbor, and avoiding baseless
hatred) in order to keep what you yourself say is a rabbinic
prohibition.
The laws that govern behavior between people (bein adam l'chaveiro) are
just as important as those that govern behavior with respect to God
(bein adam l'makom). It greatly saddens me when people deliberately
choose to violate one in favor of the other.
-- David
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From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 15:36:53 +0100
Subject: Re: The "Great Divide"
on 16/5/05 11:11 am, Shoshana Ziskind <shosh@...> wrote:
> I am perplexed by someone who thinks that only frum people can count
> in a minyan. Is there any Rav who poskens this way??? So much for
> kiruv!
There have been enough answers to Shoshana'a question but I do not see
the connection between counting to a minyan and kiruv. After all, I am
sure that even she would agree that one would not allow kiruv
considerations to allow a woman to be counted.
There is an interesting story regarding who can count to a minyan
attributed by some to the Noda Biyehudah and others to Rav Chaim
Brisk. Once he was on a journey and it was getting late in the afternoon
so he asked his talmidim to make a minyan. With difficulty, they
assembled ten men but the rav noticed that one of them was not
particularly frum and asked them to find another. The talmidim explained
the difficulty and suggested that, in the extenuating circumstances,
they should allow him to count that one time. The rav insisted so one of
them said that the Gemara rules that the prayers on a ta'anit tsibbur
must include such a sinner to be effective just as the ketoret (incense)
had to contain chelbenah, an evil smelling spice. The rav responded to
point out that the ketoret had to have ELEVEN spices!
Martin Stern
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From: Janice Gelb <j_gelb@...>
Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 09:11:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Kaddish
<DTnLA@...> (Dov Teichman) wrote:
> I'm curious what is moving more women to suddenly become more interested
> in saying Kaddish for parents? I know there are some who allow it, but
> it has traditionally been the responsibility and unique privilege of the
> male son (a kaddish'l). The one who's role in society includes going to
> Shul, making a minyan, etc. Do women feel there a lack of outlets for a
> daughter to do things that she feels will benefit the deceased? Is this
> a feminist idea?
>
> This is really a broader question, but I think there is a problem when
> women try to take on male roles and vice versa. For the most part, I
> believe this idea has emerged from modern society that does not have a
> healthy view on the appropriate role each gender plays in a community.
Whatever you might think gender roles consist of in Judaism, I hope you
would agree that both men and women can be devoted children to
parents. If someone's parent is niftar and one is the only related
person able to go to shul and say kaddish for them, can't you appreciate
that one would rather do so oneself than to pay a stranger to do so? I
greatly resent the attitude that any time women are trying to fulfill
mitzvot they are automatically doing so in relation to some political
agenda rather than because they genuinely believe in the mitzvah and
want to fulfill it.
In my particular case, my brother is not connected very much with
Judaism so I was the only one in my family able and willing to say
kaddish for my parents. It had nothing to do with any feminist idea or
taking on male roles. It had to do with honoring my parents.
-- Janice
P.S. What makes you think that more women are "suddenly" becoming more
interested in saying kaddish for deceased parents? It is because this is
the first you heard of them doing so and therefore you assume they've
never done so previously?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...>
Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 16:01:08 +0300
Subject: Re: Qaddish
Edward Ehrlich wrote: <<< I would hope that her synagogue and its
members would make a great effort to allow her to fulfill the
mitzvah. >>>
to which Janice Gelb asked <<< Um, I don't mean to be facetious
here, but how could they stop her? >>>
Let's start with a different question. What if someone (say a male)
started saying qaddish together with the sheli'ah tzibbur, when the
latter began Qaddish Tisqabel, thinking that it was actually the
mourners' qaddish. I have seen this happen at rare occasions, and the
congregation had little difficulty getting him to stop.
So that Ms. Gelb's question seems to have an answer from real life.
IRA L. JACOBSON
mailto:<laser@...>
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From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 16:17:03 +0100
Subject: Women Saying Kaddish / Kaddish said by those who are not an Ovel
on 16/5/05 11:34 am, Carl Singer <casinger@...> wrote:
> Here's a question: Plony asks you to say kaddish on behalf of their
> relative -- their schedule precludes them from regularly attending
> minyan, etc. -- even though you are NOT saying kaddish for anyone else
> (relatives of your own) you agree and you do so. On those occasions
> when plony does, indeed, show up at the minyan -- should YOU refrain
> from saying the mourner's kaddish.
I would think that the answer is Yes even in a shul where several people
say kaddish together (hopefully word for word so that the congregation
can answer Amen, Yehei Shmeih Rabba ..., the main purpose of kaddish as
has been pointed out by Jay F Shachter) since it is presumed that a
person prefers to do a mitsvah himself rather than through a shaliach.
> OK -- what if "Plony" is a woman or a minor.
Kaddish was instituted originally for minors so the above holds even
more strongly. A woman has no mitsvah as such, only a personal
commitment, but the same would probably apply since her shaliach cannot
have a greater obligation than she herself.
> A second point -- some people find saying kaddish to be cathartic -- may
> they then say kaddish if they are not a relative who is obliged to do
> so. Does their beginning to do so in any way obligate them to continue
> to do so. That is if plony decides to say kaddish for his uncle and
> begins to do so -- does he now have the same obligation as their uncle's
> children would have had?
This would depend on whether they took on the saying of kaddish as a
neder (vow) in which case they would need to make hattarat nedarim.
This 'custom' of 'hiring' people to say kaddish is IMHO downright
objectionable if it is simply because the son can't be bothered to go to
shul, as I have seen on several occasions, rather than being genuinely
incapable of so doing.
Since my shul follows the old Ashkenaz minhag of only one person saying
each kaddish, I have always refused to take on saying kaddish for
anyone, something I could not, in any case, necessarily guarantee to do
every day if there were real chiyuvim present.
Personally I find this overemphasis on kaddish distasteful; if there are
no sons there is nobody obliged to say kaddish and 'hiring' someone to
do so tends to smack of superstition.
Martin Stern
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End of Volume 47 Issue 99
