Volume 48 Number 97
Produced: Thu Jul 14 5:22:27 EDT 2005
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Gay Pride (6)
[Orrin Tilevitz, Michael Mirsky, Frank Silbermann, Ari
Trachtenberg, Shayna Kravetz, Avi Feldblum]
Heterosexual talk
[Carl A. Singer]
Religiously-Observant Homosexuals
[<ERSherer@...>]
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From: Orrin Tilevitz <tilevitzo@...>
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 08:36:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Gay Pride
The question is whether the Orthodox community is permitted to
acknowledge, on the communal level and in a way that might be construed
as acceptance, a relationship that the Torah regards as immoral where
contemporary mores might not. Again, by 'acceptance' I mean not
acceptance that the relationship is within halacha, but that it is not
bad, or not so bad, even if it is outside halacha. I previously gave
the example of synagogue membership, which Avi calls 'mainly a financial
relationship', and an intermarried couple, which Avi seems to think is
distinguishable. I would be interested whether, since Avi would accept
a male gay couple as family members, he would also accept the following
couples, and whether the communal 'civility' he would otherwise require
for gay couples should similarly be accorded to them:
(1) An aunt and nephew, legally married in a state that permits.
Halacha views it as incest, while permitting - even encouraging an uncle
- to marry his niece.
(2) A father married al yidei chupa vikushin (although of course not
civilly) to his legally adopted adult daughter. This relationship is, I
believe, incestuous under civil law, but not under Jewish law.
(3) An adult brother and sister - half-siblings - who call themselves
man and wife and make no secret of their sexual relationship. This
relationship would be, I believe, incestuous under both civil and Jewish
law.
(4) A 70-year-old man who abandons his wife of 50 years, leaving her
with no support, and takes up with the 18-year-old housekeeper. But he
gives his wife a get and finds some rabbi to perform a proper Jewish
marriage ceremony. The relationship is adulterous under civil law and
even contemporary mores would regard it as immoral, but it is not
specifically forbidden by the Torah.
I think I know where to draw the line, but I'd like to hear from Avi
first. I'd also be interested in hearing how those on the list who
would like to view a gay couple as just another family would treat these
couples.
Orrin Tilevitz
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From: Michael Mirsky <mirskym@...>
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 12:57:58 -0400
Subject: Gay Pride
Avi Feldblum replied (to Orrin):
[Note: The original reply was as: MY COMMENTS ARE IN CAPS WITHIN AVI'S
POST BELOW. Please do not use this method of reply. It is very difficult
for people to read and reply. I am converting it to our standard format
this time. In the future, any such responses will be sent back for
re-write. Mod.]
> I'd like to clarify the situation I am talking about, and then hopefully
> try and address some of Orrin's questions. I am talking about members of
> the frum gay/lesbian community. These are people who are committed to
> halacha and follow halacha for the most part.
So you're implying that they keep everything except for one d'oraisa lo
taaseh, and further implying that noone who is orthodox is a complete
tzadik and never commits an aveira, so why single them out? I say that
there's a difference between private aveirot and announcing it to the
world.
> They, as individuals, are gay / lesbian. That in itself does not say
> anything about their actual practices behind closed doors. Some
> practice total abstinence, others do not feel able to do so, but
> modify their practices to minimize violation of halacha.
True, as far as what they do behind closed doors, we don't know for sure
(but do you really think most of them do not have a sexual relationship
and just best friends)? So behind closed doors, it's between them and
Hashem and isn't the business of the tzibur until they publically come
out and call themselves a family unit, wanting to be recognized as
shomer mitzvos and gain shul membership - this is going too far. As I
said, no Jew calling him or herself orthodox is without aveiros behind
closed doors. But hopefully we are ashamed to ourselves and try to do
tshuva. In this case, they are unabashed and unashamed.
> On the lesbian side, it is highly unlikely there there is any issue of
> an issur d'orisa at all.
True, but see what we recently learned in daf yomi (Shabbat 65a) where
such behaviour is called lewdness by rabbanan.
> Since these people are followers of Halacha, they do not claim that they
> are married al pi halacha,
But they publically endorse their relationship as an acceptable
lifestyle.
> and therefore items that are clearly related to halachic marriage are
> not part of the discussion. What is part of the discussion are those
> items that are part of the social fabric of society that are
> associated with marriage.
But also part of the discussion are issues of halacha as to what is
considered acceptable.
> I'll also be upfront here that I do not necessarily agree that we
> should accord all these items to them, but the discussion on yes/no
> should be based on the real issues.
> So to begin addressing some of your points, the comparison to an
> inter-married couple has some validity in the discussion, but there are
> also differences. The relationship is however, I believe, different from
> "best friends" type relationships, but I could see some arguements
> there. To your first point, our shuls typically have a "family"
> membership structure. This means that two adults, with possibly
> children, pay one membership fee and get one set of membership
> benefits. There may also be a "single" membership option. The question
> is how to treat a gay / lesbian couple. This is mainly a financial
> relationship, and I can see good reason to argue that not offering
> family membership rates to them is not treating them civily.
It's not just a financial relationship. When according family
membership, a shul is ackowledging that unit as a family in the halachic
as well as social sense. Therefore, an orthodox shul cannot label such
a couple as a family.
> I would tend to agree that two single "best friends" should be treated
> as two seperate memberships. The issue of intermarried couple gets
> into the entire issue of how you want to deal with intermarried
> issues, and whether you are going to allow membership for non-Jews in
> the shul. I think that is a seperate issue.
Separate, but related. Issue is what rights are accorded individuals
who publically have violated halacha.
To summarize, yes we should behave civilly to them, but rebuff them when
it comes to issues where accepting them would de facto suggest that the
negation of parts of halacha is acceptable.
Michael Mirsky
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From: Frank Silbermann <fs@...>
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 06:17:51 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Gay Pride
someone:
> What I cannot understand is why homosexuals have to publicise
> their sexual preferences. As people, I would treat them just as
> anyone else insofar as their sexual practices are irrelevant to
> the matter in hand.
<FriedmanJ@...> (Jeanette Friedman) V48 N96
> ... It's because heterosexual sex is all that heterosexuals talk about
> and brag about--from the birth announcements in pink and blue, to the
> baby showers, the brissim and the baby-namings, to the engagement parties
> and the weddings, all the time, everytime, everywhere, it is inescapable.
> ...
> So what gays are doing is dishing some of that constant barrage right
> back at the rest of us.
And thereby they challege the notion that married heterosexual sex is in
any sense more legitimate that homosexual sex. I would not expect an
unfortunate involuntarily gay Orthodox person to take that position.
Frank Silbermann New Orleans, Louisian <fs@...>
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From: Ari Trachtenberg <trachten@...>
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:56:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Gay Pride
Avi Feldblum wrote on 07/13/2005 06:08 AM:
> Since these people are followers of Halacha, they do not claim that
> they are married al pi halacha, and therefore items that are clearly
> related to halachic marriage are not part of the discussion.
Maybe this has been the case so far ... but a recent talk I heard from
Rabbi Steve Greenberg (an openly homosexual Orthodox rabbi) was looking
precisely at this issue ... how to develop a halachically valid
kiddushin for homosexual couples.
To be an atypical right-wing extremist, I think the history of the
Conservative movement in the US has amply demonstrated that human nature
is such that "avera gorreret avera" [one transgression (in this case, a
seemingly clear-cut Torah transgression) breeds another], regardless of
the intelligence, learning or good intentions of the people involved.
Ari Trachtenberg, Boston University
http://people.bu.edu/trachten mailto:<trachten@...>
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From: Shayna Kravetz <skravetz@...>
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 09:42:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Gay Pride
Avi Feldblum wrote:
>our shuls typically have a "family" membership structure. This means
>that two adults, with possibly children, pay one membership fee and get
>one set of membership benefits. There may also be a "single" membership
>option. The question is how to treat a gay / lesbian couple. This is
>mainly a financial relationship, and I can see good reason to argue
>that not offering family membership rates to them is not treating them
>civily. I would tend to agree that two single "best friends" should be
>treated as two seperate memberships.
And so what do we do with two roommates who share an apartment but not a
sexual connection? What if they even have shared bank accounts and pool
their earnings to run the household? We don't give them a family
membership. Why not? Surely, because a necessary part of the
definition of 'family' is still a grouping of human beings that shares a
genetic (parents/children) or sexual (spouses) connection. Legally, the
acid test for many situations (e.g., how long has a couple been
'separated'? what patterns of behaviour can establish a common-law
relationship? and, of course, has a marriage been consummated or can it
be annulled?) remains the presence or absence of sexual relations.
(And, yes, I know that there are elderly couples who no longer have sex,
and foster parents and adoptive parents who are not related genetically
to their children. We still count them as families -- in the former
case, because we presume that they once had a sexual connection, and in
the latter case, because civil law defines them as families and that
definition is not inconsistent with halachah -- just unconnected with
it.)
So, in this situation, when we give to two adults of the same sex who
are not genetically connected but who still claim to be a family our
acknowledgment that they are 'family', we are acknowledging and
privileging the presence of a sexual connection which is prohibited
mi-d'rabbanan at least, if not mi-d'oraita. (As others have pointed
out, we don't know what goes on behind closed doors.) We are crossing
over from tolerance to active support, in my opinion. We may be forced
to do so because of civil laws against non-discrimination but I don't
think we should ignore the halachic dilemma of our participation in
their being oveir b'pharhessia (transgressing in public).
And, to return to the ham sandwich comparison: while Pirkei Avot warns
against trying to distinguish between a 'light' and a 'heavy' mitzvah,
the amount of time, money, psychological and emotional energy, and care
devoted to family vs. menu choices certainly makes ham eaters' actions
less problematic than homosexuals'. There are at least three reasons
why our shuls offer family discounts and not, say, "shomrei mitzvot"
discounts: first, our recognition of the importance of family in Jewish
social structures; second, the role of the family as an economic unit;
and third, the fact that family was, until recently, a clear and
publicly recognized concept in both civil law and halachah. Who could
dare to include or exclude someone from a "shomrei mitzvot" membership!?
(Think of the horrible situations that arise in some current day schools
admissions processes when what is essentially a "shomrei mitzvot"
standard is applied to parents.) But 'family' used to be a more
clear-cut standard.
The civil aspect of family is vanishing; the halachah is hanging tough.
Shul memberships (and the rest of the list of 'social' benefits) are
caught in the widening gap between the two.
Please let me add that nothing in this discussion should be taken to
countenance the open rebukes, rudeness, and lack of derech eretz that I
personally have seen in situations involving gay Jews in the Orthodox
community. Fealty to halachic principles, in my understanding, includes
the active pursuit of peace and k'vod ha-briyot.
Kol tuv from
Shayna in Toronto
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From: Avi Feldblum <avi@...>
Date: Thurs, 14 Jul 2005
Subject: Re: Gay Pride
Just a quick note that I will not be able to answer the questions that
people have addressed to me until Sunday.
Avi
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From: Carl A. Singer <casinger@...>
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 07:12:50 -0400
Subject: Heterosexual talk
> It's really easy. It's because heterosexual sex is all that
> heterosexuals talk about and brag about--from the birth announcements in
> pink and blue, to the baby showers, the brissim and the baby-namings, to
> the engagement parties and the weddings, all the time, everytime,
> everywhere, it is inescapable. Everywhere you look, there are
> heterosexual messages innundating society.
I disagree with the above.
Perhaps that's what non-heterosexuals hear -- but most heterosexual
people talk about mundane matters that simply take place in their
context.
Consider the following 4 statements:
1 - My wife made a delicious pot roast last Shabbos.
2 - Gas prices are ridiculous.
3 - My children are B"H doing well in school.
4 - My back aches because I spent the whole day weeding the garden.
Are statements 1 and 3 somehow tainted heterosexual statements because
they reflect on family? Again, these are simply statements made in the
context in which I live.
Carl Singer
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From: <ERSherer@...>
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 11:27:59 EDT
Subject: Re: Religiously-Observant Homosexuals
<< (religiously-observant homosexuals) >>
An oxymoron if I ever heard of one.
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End of Volume 48 Issue 97
