Volume 49 Number 10
Produced: Wed Jul 20 9:40:30 EDT 2005
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Aramaic , Systematically
[Yeshaya Halevi]
Artichokes?
[Eliezer Finkelman]
Buying Jewish
[Dov Teichman]
Do not call list
[Meir]
Gay Family Shul Membership (5)
[Michael Mirsky, Avi Feldblum, W. Baker, <ERSherer@...>, Avi
Feldblum]
How High a Mechitza
[Bernard Raab]
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From: Yeshaya Halevi <c.halevi@...>
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:39:34 -0500
Subject: Aramaic , Systematically
Shalom, All:
In day school and yeshiva I was taught Hebrew, of course, but never,
ever was given a class in Aramaic. Since one can't learn Babylonian
G'mara (Talmud) without knowing Aramaic, everybody is at a huge
disadvantage. Why is this?
Kol Tuv,
Yeshaya (Charles Chi) Halevi
<halevi@...>
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From: Eliezer Finkelman <louis.finkelman@...>
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 22:46:13 -0400
Subject: Artichokes?
My wife made an observation about the artwork in medieval Hebrew
manuscripts, a recent interest of hers. In several illuminated
Haggadot, the illustration for Maror looks astonishingly like an
artichoke. I have read some material about the different varieties of
bitter herb mentioned in the Mishnah, without coming across any mention
of the artichoke, or any description of another plant that looks like an
artichoke.
For example:
The Brother Haggadah, ML MS Or. 1404, f18r, as reproduced in The
Illuminated Haggadah: Featuring Medieval Illuminations from the Haggadah
Collection of the British Library ed. R. Michael Shire (New York:
Stewart, Tabori & Chang, 1998) 34. The editor dates this work to
Catalonia, mid. 14th century.
The Rylands Haggadah: A Medieval Sephardi Masterpiece in Facsimile with
notes, introduction, translation by Raphael Loewe (London: Thames and
Hudson, 1988) folio 31b. The editor dates parts of this manuscript to
mid 14th century, the rest to before the 15th.
The Sarajevo Haggadah with introduction, notes and commentary by Cecil
Roth (Belgrade: 1967). The editor dates this work to Northern Spain,
after 1350.
Can you help explain this phenomenon?
Thank you for your attention,
Eliezer Finkelman
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From: <DTnLA@...> (Dov Teichman)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:22:51 EDT
Subject: Re: Buying Jewish
I don't know if we hold like this practically speaking (l'halacha) but
see Rashi to Leviticus 25:14 who brings a drasha that says that we must
prefer to sell and buy to/from Jews.
Dov Teichman
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From: <meirman@...> (Meir)
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:51:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Do not call list
>From: Carl A. Singer <casinger@...>
>Does anyone have a definitive answer -- i.e. is a not-for-profit when
>engaged in an unrelated BUSINESS ACTIVITY (not soliciting tzedukah)
>exempt from the do-not-call lists.
Yes.
https://www.donotcall.gov/FAQ/FAQBusiness.aspx#who and below.
Also http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/alerts/dncalrt.htm
"29. If I register my number on the National Do Not Call Registry,
will it stop all telemarketing calls?
"No. Placing your number on the National Do Not Call Registry will
stop most telemarketing calls, but not all. Because of limitations in
the jurisdiction of the FTC and FCC, calls from or on behalf of
political organizations, charities, and telephone surveyors would
still be permitted, as would calls from companies with which you have
an existing business relationship, or those to whom you've provided
express agreement in writing to receive their calls. "
Since the do-not-call list, I haven't gotten calls from telephone
providers either, or phony telephone surveys**. Unless I need a full
business relationship, I try not to establish a slight one. Citibank
has something that is a cross between Paypal and Western Union, but to
use it, I had to agree to phone calls (or maybe email, don't remember
which), from its "associates" or some vague benign-sounding term. Turns
out they don't all start with Citi- and there are thousands of them.
They were 90% cheaper than Western Union, but I didn't want calls. I
emailed the guy and he said he didn't use Paypal but he would take a
check. ** (I did get one call last March I thought was in violation,
and I called the number to check, and a recording said it would charge
me 10 dollars if I didn't hang up no.... I hung up during the word
"now", but for complicated reasons I wasn't able to check my bill. I've
heard they sometimes charge even if you hang up.
Meir
<meirman@...> Baltimore, MD, USA
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From: Michael Mirsky <mirskym@...>
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:13:15 -0400
Subject: Gay Family Shul Membership
Avi Feldblum said:
>It is hard to speak of generalities, there are too many frum shuls /
>communities where if you do not confirm to all issues - halachic, chumra
>and shtus, that they hold, you are basically not welcome. There are many
>others where the community is much more inclusive. However, for many of
>those latter communities, there is much more openess / inclusiveness for
>people who are clearly and openly violators of halacha - in the idea
>that they may come to greater observance of halacha - while little to no
>tolerance for committed frum gay / lesbians who are doing everything
>they can to live within halacha and the general Orthodox Jewish
>community.
This to me is the quandry. More open Orthodox shuls may accept member
families who are not yet Shomer Shabbat, because the hope is that
through attending the shul, shiyurim etc they will move towards becoming
more observant in regards to Shabbat and all other mitzvot. Some do,
and some don't, but there is a hope & possibility.
But for those gay couples who want to be accepted as families in the
shul, I don't see much likelihood that they will change to become more
observant in this respect. (True, there are those who have feelings for
the same sex but don't engage in sexual activity, but I presume they are
in the minority). It appears that the desire is to be accepted as frum
Jews who keep most of the mitzvot except this one, and to stay that way.
So the message will be that this is acceptable as the norm, and that's
where I think the line is being drawn.
"Yisrael, af al pi shechata, Yisrael hoo." A Jew is still a Jew even
when s/he has sinned. We must deal civilly with her/him and treat
her/him with the dignity that is the right of anyone. The fact that they
do other mitzvot should not be ignored. But we cannot accept as
normative such lifestyles which are counter to Halacha. If that means
being treated differently in regards to shul membership or other
matters, this is how it must be.
Michael
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From: Avi Feldblum <avi@...>
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 09:02:30 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Gay Family Shul Membership
> This to me is the quandry. More open Orthodox shuls may accept member
> families who are not yet Shomer Shabbat, because the hope is that through
> attending the shul, shiyurim etc they will move towards becoming more
> observant in regards to Shabbat and all other mitzvot. Some do, and some
> don't, but there is a hope & possibility.
>
> But for those gay couples who want to be accepted as families in the shul,
> I don't see much likelihood that they will change to become more observant
> in this respect. (True, there are those who have feelings for the same sex
> but don't engage in sexual activity, but I presume they are in the
> minority). It appears that the desire is to be accepted as frum Jews who
> keep most of the mitzvot except this one, and to stay that way. So the
> message will be that this is acceptable as the norm, and that's where I
> think the line is being drawn.
I'll continue to respond in a similar manner. First, what evidence to
you have that those gay / lesbian couples who self identify as "frum"
are in violation of halacha? It is far, far easier for them to simply
reject the Orthodox community completely. Those that maintain a self
identification as Orthodox, I would argue, are likely to at a minimum be
acting in a manner to minimize, if not totally avoid, halachically
forbidden activity. Those who may not, still view it as a forbidden
activity that they are not able to desist from, but what right do you
have to say that they "want to stay that way"?
I would also point out, that it is this attitude that I think drives the
majority of frum people who discover they are gay / lesbian to leave the
Orthodox community. So I suspect that the number of frum gay / lesbians
is relatively small, but I also suspect that the attitude of the frum
community has driven many of it's sons and daughters away.
Avi Feldblum
<avi@...>
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From: W. Baker <wbaker@...>
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:49:58 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Gay Family Shul Membership
How about several kinds of memberships that apply to everyone,
dual,household memberships for those without children, living in the
same household,(this could include newlyweds and those with grown
children or older couples and students sharing an apartment and
homosexuals sharing an apartment, and then there would be family
memberships for couples with children, or larger households, say three
roommates, etc. It woudl be based on numbers, not status, so could get
around some of the issues discussed here.
Wendy Baker
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From: <ERSherer@...>
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 23:13:08 EDT
Subject: Re: Gay Family Shul Membership
> argue that halacha acknowledges that people have all manner of sexual
> desires, but that not all of these desires can be acted upon. We
> acknowledge this *all the time*, by our insistence on the separation of
> the sexes. And we don't assume that Orthodox heterosexual people are
> acting on their halachicly forbidden sexual desires (even though we may
Of course, the Torah does not address forbidden heterosexual sex in
the type of language used concerning homosexual activity [Al tishkav
zochor k'isha towava hoo), which denounces such activity as an
"abomination".
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From: Avi Feldblum <avi@...>
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 08:50:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Gay Family Shul Membership
On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 <ERSherer@...> wrote:
> Of course, the Torah does not address forbidden heterosexual sex in
> the type of language used concerning homosexual activity [Al tishkav
> zochor k'isha towava hoo), which denounces such activity as an
> "abomination".
A few points here. First, an analysis of the Torah's use of the word
Toaiva as well as some similar words brings forth a fairly interesting
set of laws that the Torah does not simply say it is forbidden, but
describes the violation with a descriptive term. As others have pointed
out, you do find such terms in forbidden heterosexual relations as well
as forbidden foods. My vague memory is that someone once posted a full
list to mail-jewish during some previous occurance of these discussions
(several years ago).
Second, as I have stated several times, the basic discussion is about
individuals / couples for whom there is no issue of "toeiva", in that
they are fully observant of avoiding any activity that falls under that
rubric. The problem we continue to see is that despite those
statements, there are a significant number of members of the list who
seem unable to differentiate between an individual who is gay / lesbian
and one who engages in forbidden gay acts. We are discussing individuals
who are frum. What halachic right to you have to question their
implicit or explicit statement that they are not violating halacha in
that respect?
I would to also use this as an oppertunity to question how much of our
reaction is truely Torah based vs how much is influenced by Christian
views of sexuality in general. If one reads Tanach, how much emphasis
does one find on negative attitudes toward sexuality? How about Mishne /
Tosefta / early Midrash? When did early Christian anti-sexuality
attitude develop, and does that track with later Jewish thought /
writing? Does anyone know whether there is material published on this
question /idea?
Avi Feldblum
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From: Bernard Raab <beraab@...>
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 02:05:33 -0400
Subject: How High a Mechitza
>From: Yisrael Medad <ybmedad@...>
> >For purposes of tsniut, a rigid opaque barrier from floor to ceiling
> >would be required
>is this his opinion in any really serious tzni'ut situation, say a
>downtown bus or train on a hot summer's day and that without it, one
>cannot be there at all?
The story, presumably true, is told of the prominent Israeli rabbi
visiting the US who was invited to a meeting at Yeshiva University, and
thus found himself on the "A" train headed uptown on a New York summer
day. He thereupon "assered" his talmidim from ever using the New York
subway. When his YU host, also a prominent Rosh Yeshiva, heard of this
sometime later, he said something like: "Oh, we New Yorkers are used to
that, and there is no aveira in riding the subway." Using the same
reasoning, it would seem that we New Yorkers who grew up going to public
beaches in the summer are similarly exempted from requiring
sex-segragated swimming pools!
b'shalom--Bernie R.
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End of Volume 49 Issue 10