Volume 49 Number 63
Produced: Mon Aug 22 6:00:49 EDT 2005
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Customs of the Place- Minhag haMakom
[Joel Rich]
Jackets (and Hats) for Tefilah (2)
[Dov Teichman, Chaim Tabasky]
Jackets for Tefillah (8)
[Mike Gerver, Shmuel Himelstein, Gershon Dubin, Aliza Berger,
Arie, Martin Stern, Martin Stern, Martin Stern]
Jackets in shul and Minhag haMakom
[Carl A. Singer]
Volume of Tephilla
[Carl A. Singer]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Joel Rich <JRich@...>
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 05:21:33 -0400
Subject: Customs of the Place- Minhag haMakom
> In both minyanim when it comes to the mourner's kaddish, for example,
> everyone does their own thing all together - the ashkenazi, sefard, edat
> hamizrach. Everyone is respectful of the other and waits at the
> appropriate times so that everyone says it all in unison and all finish
> together.
> Stuart Pilichowski
I assume the shul minhag is eveyone does their own thing or else
shouldn't they all say the kaddish with the nusach hamakom as they do
for kedusha?
KT
Joel Rich
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: <DTnLA@...> (Dov Teichman)
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 08:13:21 EDT
Subject: Re: Jackets (and Hats) for Tefilah
Joel Rich <JRich@...> writes:
> Without discussing the halachik issue, I would point out that in the
> States it is very common for top level meetings to take place in
> "business casual" (read no jackets). You might also consider where
> the "jacket" came from in the first place (i.e. whose idea of proper
> dress was this - Jews or Non-Jewish?)
If you look into halacha much of the dress code for prayer is based on
"the hat one would wear in the street" or standing before a respectable
person. My brother-in-law once asked a Rov if times have changed and
things have gotten more casual, why must we still wear hats and jackets
for prayer? He replied basically that there is a certain objective level
of respect that is portrayed by wearing an additional head covering
(hat/turban) over ones yarmulka and by wearing a garment over ones basic
clothing (jacket/cloak). This had been the definition of formal dress
until the 60s. (President Kennedy was the first president who almost
never wore a hat.) The fact that American culture has slowly done away
with hats is merely a function of lessening of formality and respect
that ought to be there.
Dov Teichman
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Chaim Tabasky <tabafkc@...>
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 18:39:59 +0200
Subject: Jackets (and Hats) for Tefilah
About 30 years ago, a friend and former student of mine went to a
Litvish yeshiva in Jerusalem. He got a lot of flack for not wearing a
hat in davening. Finally, he decided to ask Rav Elyashiv (may he live
and be well until 120). He went without a hat, and asked if he was
required to wear a hat for davening. Rav Elyashiv said no (this
according to my friend). His Israeli roommate, when told, couldn't
believe it, so he went to ask Rav Elyashiv himself. Of course he wore
his hat. When Rav Elyashiv was asked whether the yeshiva student must
wear a hat for tefilah, he replied in the affirmative. This isaa classic
case of the rule that one should dress for davening as when dresses when
meeting an important person.
Stuart Pilichowski wrote:
> My personal feeling is that it's important to look neat and kempt
> always, not just when standing formally in front of HKBH; after all,
> aren't we always standing in front of Hashem, aren't we always, more
> importantly perhaps, representing Hashem?
Yes, but there is a difference between a formal occasion and an informal
one. A special piece of clothing for davening, or washing hands, or other
preparations, get us in the mood and mode.
b'yedidut,
Chaim
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: <MJGerver@...> (Mike Gerver)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 17:36:50 EDT
Subject: Jackets for Tefillah
S. Wise writes, in v49n55,
While I realize that there are many shuls that allow men without
jackets to daven for the amud, and in Israel I notice there are
many people as well who do, is it not more respectful to Hakadosh
Baruch Hu to come properly dressed to daven to him, with a jacket,
socks and shoes? I am not the first to make this comparison, but
there are occasions when even these casually people will dress for
a client or an important person. Doesn't Hashem deserve the same?
In Israel, no one wears a jacket or tie for a client or an important
person. At least not in my field, patent law, while in the US they
would. I suppose high government officials might wear jackets and ties
if they were meeting a high government official from another country,
where people do wear jackets and ties on such occasions. And in some
neighborhoods of Jerusalem, people wear jackets and ties to weddings,
but those people also wear jackets and ties in shul. And in Bnei Brak
and other haredi neighborhoods, they would wear jackets, but not
necessarily ties, both to weddings and in shul. Except for those cases,
I can't think of any situation in Israel where a jacket would be
required or expected.
Mike Gerver
Raanana, Israel
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Shmuel Himelstein <himels@...>
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:16:25 +0300
Subject: Jackets for Tefillah
One of my brothers-in-law - a Rav in a Shul in Israel for many years -
once told me that the standard one should consider in terms of what to
wear for Shul is how one would appear if invited to the President of
Israel. There is no doubt that at least in Israel many men will come
without a jacket or tie - and possibly even in sandals.
Shmuel Himelstein
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 14:43:40 GMT
Subject: Jackets for Tefillah
From: Stuart Pilichowski <cshmuel@...>
> aren't we always standing in front of Hashem, aren't we always, more
> importantly perhaps, representing Hashem?
If you work in a king's palace, you take off your jacket when you
work. When the king summons you to appear in front of him, it goes on.
Not unlike people working in an office in shirtsleeves who put on their
jackets when going into a meeting with a client.
Tefila is a formal meeting with HKB"H.
Gershon
<gershon.dubin@...>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Aliza Berger <alizadov@...>
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 10:01:59 +0200
Subject: Jackets for Tefillah
Is the reason for wearing the hat merely proper decorum, or is there a
halakhic aspect: that the head should have 2 coverings (or that all of
it be covered) for davening?
This could have practical applications. My husband, when in shloshim for
his father, z"l, several times attended a minyan where jacket and hat
were required attire for being shaliach tzibur. When the people realized
he was in aveilut they asked him to be shaliach tzibur. He wore his
windbreaker jacket and they lent him a hat. But could he have worn his
own baseball cap?
Sincerely,
Aliza Berger-Cooper, PhD
English Editing: www.editing-proofreading.com
Statistics Consulting: www.statistics-help.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: <aliw@...> (Arie)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 22:49:55 +0200
Subject: Re: Jackets for Tefillah
S.Wise wrote in mj 49/55:
>While I realize that there are many shuls that allow men without
>jackets to daven for the amud, and in Israel I notice there are many
>people as well who do, is it not more respectful to Hakadosh Baruch Hu
>to come properly dressed to daven to him, with a jacket, socks and
>shoes? I am not the first to make this comparison, but there are
>occasions when even these casually people will dress for a client or an
>important person. Doesn't Hashem deserve the same?
Especially at Mincha, when it's not at the beginning or end of the day
and you don't know where you'll be or when a minyan will pop up, I think
finding a minyan, and being on time, and indeed, hakpada in general
about t'filla b'tzibur, should take precedence over running home (or to
the car, office or wherever) to get a hat/socks/whatever. In our shul
you can't daven for the amud in shorts. The shatz must wear a talit at
every t'fila, so that the buttoned down oxfords are on par with the pink
floyd t shirts and the harley leather jacket wearers.
Should Hashem receive at least the awe and yir'at kavod afforded to
a melech basar vadam (or an important client) ? Absolutely ! Would
I rather have my son run to be at mincha on time or run home to
get a long sleeve shirt or long pants or socks to go with his
sandals ? Go to shul ! Feel you are improperly dressed ? Daven in
the back.
arie
btw - can't a gabai approach a chiyuv and ask him, to allow him to daven
for the amud, to wear a tallit and cover his head with it, thus solving
the problem ? yesh sovrim that the shatz should always cover his head
with the tallit.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 10:53:44 +0100
Subject: Re: Jackets for Tefillah
on 18/8/05 9:54 am, Stuart Pilichowski <cshmuel@...> wrote:
> My personal feeling is that it's important to look neat and kempt
> always, not just when standing formally in front of HKBH; after all,
> aren't we always standing in front of Hashem, aren't we always, more
> importantly perhaps, representing Hashem?
But when we are davenning we are, so to speak, talking to Him.
Martin Stern
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 10:58:03 +0100
Subject: Re: Jackets for Tefillah
on 18/8/05 9:54 am, Charles Halevi <c.halevi@...> wrote:
> The issue of people being denied the chance to daven before
> the amud because they lacked a jacket is astounding to me. In the
> Lincolnwood Jewish Congregation (Chicago-area) there are always at least
> three sizes of nice looking sport coats or suit jackets that people
> gladly donated to the shul for use in the minyan. If the hook could hold
> more, there'd probably be six.
Obviously a much more constructive approach than simply telling someone
'sorrry you are improperly dressed'. In our shul the shats always wears
a tallit and we have plenty available so we do not have the jacket
problem.
Martin Stern
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:00:56 +0100
Subject: Re: Jackets for Tefillah
on 18/8/05 9:54 am, Yisrael Medad <ybmedad@...> wrote:
> Well, if they daven as they used to at the kibbutzim of the Kibbutz
> Dati movement, shorts and sandals are de rigeur and normative.
This would be most inappropriate in a shul where most people dress more
formally but it shows just how much depends on the particular place and
its ethos.
Martin Stern
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Carl A. Singer <casinger@...>
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 07:27:09 -0400
Subject: Jackets in shul and Minhag haMakom
The variety of postings is interesting. Many years ago there was a most
heart-warming posting re: someone in true kibbutz fashion wore his
bright white shirt, shorts and sandals on a Shabbos when a visitor in
another community. He inadvertently ended up in a Chasidish shul where
everyone wore bekeshes, etc. As I recall he was treated as guest and
given an aliyah.
How we deal with out of town visitors in a shul is a matter of hachnosas
orchim. If the minhag haMakom incorporates a de facto dress code then
we need to use a bit of common sense (an uncommon commidity.) Perhaps
lending a jacket is an appropriate acomodation. As a host we make sure
our guests are aware of what community dress is like (they usually ask,
anyhow.)
How we deal with community members who know our minhagim (or should) is
a different issue.
Along this line there have been various discussion about how one would
dress for royalty (haMavdil) or such -- and familiarity. One has to
draw the line somewhere and a shul community has the right to draw that
line, both for acceptable dress in shul and for acceptable dress for the
schatz. We had a member of our shul (who goes to work daily in jacket
and tie) show up to mincha / ma'ariv in shorts and sandals. He ended up
davening for the Amud (inexperienced Gabbai.) This was later addressed
with the Gabbaim and the Rabbi -- and, as they say, it won't happen
again.
If dressing up for Shabbos (as an example) in one's community means
putting on a clean white shirt, shorts and sandals -- kol hakovod.
That's the community standard (the Minhag hamakom if you will.)
Similarly, if Shabbos means black suit, black hat (even in humid 90
degree weather) .....
But in either case, to dress down for davening seems to be completely
missing the point.
Carl Singer
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Carl A. Singer <casinger@...>
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 07:08:33 -0400
Subject: Volume of Tephilla
> There is man in a minyan that I go to who shouts his when he say the
> kaddish, so much so that he drowns others and when davening he is a
> verse ahead of the others and says it in such a voice that it can be
> heard all the shul.
>
> I have been told that his practice is to be commended that indeed one
> has to shout the kaddish is that so?
This is yet another example of someone's behavior (intentional or
otherwise - hey may have hearing problems and be unaware) that is
(apparently) disturbing the tzibbor.
1 - Is such behavior acceptable? My vote is "no" -- but there are
halachic sources that should be addressed to this question.
2 - What to do. In many congregations the milquetoast response is to
grin and bear it -- worse yet to complain and possibly get into the
domain of loshen horah. I would suggest, instead, that the Rabbi of the
shul be asked to privately address this with the individual.
Can you hear me now?
Carl Singer
----------------------------------------------------------------------
End of Volume 49 Issue 63
