Volume 51 Number 05
Produced: Tue Jan 17 5:09:29 EST 2006
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Advice of Yose ben Yochanan Ish Yerushalayim
[Samuel Ehrenfeld]
Brief Points
[Nathan Lamm]
Chupas Nida (3)
[Gershon Dubin, Gershon Dubin, Bracha Sebrow]
Chuppah
[Carl Singer]
First haircut
[Perets Mett]
Haircutting Issues
[Freda B Birnbaum]
Hilchot Nidah
[Perry Zamek]
Hilchot Nidah (was: Re: "talking to women" [sic])
[Aryeh Gielchinsky]
Kallah covering hair after the chupah
[Yehudah Prero]
Life-Cycle Customs
[Perets Mett]
Talking to women
[Russell J Hendel]
Upshirin
[Joseph Kaplan]
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From: Samuel Ehrenfeld <samfeld@...>
Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 19:47:36 -0500
Subject: Advice of Yose ben Yochanan Ish Yerushalayim
Recently there has been a fair amount of correspondence about the advice
of the early Tanna, Yose ben Yochanan Ish Yerushalayim, with respect to
limiting the amount of chatting between men and women.
I find it ironic that this advice has resulted in additional chatting
between men and women. I also find it ironic that no one seems to
remember his other worthwhile advice regarding hospitality to guests and
caring for the poor.
Some people have taken offense by certain individuals' rude conduct in
their conversational habits with persons of the opposite sex. But I
don't think it is fair to lay the blame on this Tanna.
Whatever you feel on subjects like these, please keep the following in
mind when you post: Our posts may be read by many, many people, of both
sexes. Our posts may be read many, many years in the future. Someone
may come across one of our posts in a Google search (on a related or
completely unrelated topic) tomorrow or 100 years from now and
completely misunderstand your meaning. Who knows how much damage can be
caused (currently or in the unforeseeable future)?
It behooves us all to choose our words carefully. "Chachamim, hizaharu
bedivreichem . . . ." ("Wise ones, be careful with your words . . . .")
Shmuel Ehrenfeld
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From: Nathan Lamm <nelamm18@...>
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 07:55:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Brief Points
Three brief points of response to various posts:
-The general tradition (based on a confluence of various Aggadot) is
that Shmuel was two, not three, when he was brought to the Mishkan. If
haircutting is based only on this, it should be a year earlier.
-The story of R' Akiva and the orphan has him teaching him to say Barchu
(i.e., be the Shatz), not Kaddish. Of course, the Shatz says Kaddish,
at least two or three time. Later, Kaddishim were inserted into tefillah
(with extra teffilot to match) so that more avelim could say
Kaddish. (This being when only one avel said Kaddish at a time, a custom
still in place in some kehillot today.) That's why we associate Kaddish
with avelut.
-Hinduism is, strictly speaking, not polytheistic but pantheisitc- it
sees God (or what we'd think of as "God"- to a Hindu, it's more of a
complete spiritual force) as part of everything, every aspect of nature.
The various aspects spirit are then represented by different images.
The question remains, however, what the average Hindu thinks as he
worships these images. Some- priests, the more educated, and so on- may
realize that they are worshipping a representation of the overall spirit
(one God, if you will). However, if the worshipper who, say, cuts off
his hair that is then made into a wig thinks he is doing to to honor one
god out of millions, then that is potentially Avodah Zara.
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From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 23:04:52 -0500
Subject: Chupas Nida
From: Bracha Sebrow <brachasebrow@...>
> To my knowledge, the only way to really know if the Kallah is a nidda
> is to observe whether the chosson actually gives the kesubah directly to
> her or not. If he does not directly hand her the kesubah, then the
> kallah is a niddah.
In almost all cases that I've seen the kesuba is given to the mother or
father of the kalla for safekeeping. So your if/then deduction of
chupas nida is flawed.
The only way to know, in a situation where those involved are discreet
and somewhat experienced in these matters, is to be told. And why
should you be if you're not directly involved?
Gershon
<gershon.dubin@...>
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From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 22:53:36 -0500
Subject: Chupas Nida
From: Judy Tudor <judytudor@...>
> Well, in all of the weddings I've attended (including mine) the
> first cup is given to the Kallah's mother - who gives her daughter
> the wine. The second cup is given to the Kallah directly by her
> (brand new) husband.
I have never seen this and I've been to many many weddings.
What I've seen is the two mothers take turns giving the cup to the
kallah, and to "complete the picture" the two fathers take turns giving
to the chasan.
Gershon
<gershon.dubin@...>
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From: Bracha Sebrow <brachasebrow@...>
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 10:20:04 -0500
Subject: RE: Chupas Nida
>In almost all cases that I've seen the kesuba is given to the mother or
>father of the kalla for safekeeping. So your if/then deduction of
>chupas nida is flawed.
>The only way to know, in a situation where those involved are discreet
>and somewhat experienced in these matters, is to be told. And why
>should you be if you're not directly involved?
>Gershon
><gershon.dubin@...>
While it is true that in almost every case the kesuba is given to one of
the parents for safekeeping, the chosson is given the kesubah first by
the person who read it, and then he gives it to the kallah, who will
then give it to a parent for safekeeping.
But the reality is that it is nobody's business about the kallah's
status. That's why people go out of their way to not do things so that
no one would be able to tell that the kallah is a niddah, such as not
allowing couples to hold hands after the chupah. Many yeshivos have
this minhag.
Bracha Sebrow
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From: <casinger@...> (Carl Singer)
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 07:44:06 -0500
Subject: Chuppah
> Many people have the custom of not allowing the chosson and kallah to
> walk away hand-in-hand for precisely this reason, so that no one will
> know if a kallah is a niddah or not, because every couple walks away
> without holding hands.
>
> To my knowledge, the only way to really know if the Kallah is a niddah
> is to observe whether the chosson actually gives the kesubah directly to
> her or not. If he does not directly hand her the kesubah, then the
> kallah is a niddah.
By this same logic, then, NO chosson should hand the kesubah directly to
his kallah -- so as not to be an indicator (of Niddah.) in comparison to
other couples.
Carl
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From: Perets Mett <p.mett@...>
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 22:21:41 +0000
Subject: First haircut
Mordechai wrote:
> Among Hassidim, some groups Hassidim (E.g. Gur and Skvira, from my
> recollection) do it at two years of age, and not three. It is evident
> from the above that it is far from a standard or universal practice.
Mordechai may be right about Skverer chasidim, but I know of no Gerer
chasidim who cut their sons' hair at two years of age.
Perets Mett
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From: Freda B Birnbaum <fbb6@...>
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 12:00:28 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Haircutting Issues
In v51n02, Saul Davis gives a fascinating summary of an article on the
anthropology of haircutting rituals.
I recall, quite a few years ago, seeing in the _Jewish Observer_ an
article by a father reflecting on his feelings at his son's first
haircut, and IIRC one point he made was about the fact that the kid's
hair was allowed to be long for what might seem a longish time, up to 3.
Again, IIRC, he said that keeping the boy's hair longer (more like a
girl's) prevented some of his tougher and more demanding feelings about
how boys should act from kicking in too soon, and that this was probably
a good thing.
I'll try to go through the archeological dig here and see if I can find
the reference. It was a sweet article.
Freda Birnbaum, <fbb6@...>
"Call on God, but row away from the rocks"
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From: Perry Zamek <perryza@...>
Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 20:53:48 +0200
Subject: Re: Hilchot Nidah
I had written:
>I think that Shayna is wrong on one point - women do have seminal
>emissions. This is the reason for the minimum of 5 days in the nidah
>state before counting the 7 clean days, even if the menstrual flow has
>ceased earlier.
Rabbi Teitz was kind enough to point out to me (off-list) that, of
course, the semen is that of the husband, which is expelled from the
wife's body. I apologize if my comment was not clear.
Perry Zamek
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From: Aryeh Gielchinsky <agielchinsky@...>
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 01:23:42 -0500
Subject: Hilchot Nidah (was: Re: "talking to women" [sic])
Perry Zamek wrote:
>I think that Shayna is wrong on one point - women do have seminal
>emissions. This is the reason for the minimum of 5 days in the nidah
>state before counting the 7 clean days, even if the menstrual flow has
>ceased earlier.
Rav Moshe (Evan Haezer book 1 section 69 page 198) quotes Kesuvos 46
which quotes a pasuk(Vinishmeres) from which we learn that a man
shouldn't fantasize because it will led to tumas keri. Then he says this
pasuk doesn't apply to women.
Aryeh Gielchinsky
President of the Yeshiva University Physics and Engineering Club, retired
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From: <dapr@...> (Yehudah Prero)
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 09:49:07 -0500
Subject: Kallah covering hair after the chupah
I believe that one source for those who cover their hair for the entire
chupah is the Mishna Berura found on Hilchos Krias Shma (Orech Chayim
75:2, MB 11) where he states that "those who are virgins and "arusos"
are forbidden to go around with their head uncovered." This seems to
state that as soon as "Eirusin" is completed at the time of the Chupah,
the woman's hair should be covered. This would be even before Yichud.
Doing such is the custom in Yeshivas "Chofetz Chaim," of which I am a
talmid. Before our wedding, my wife and I paid a visit to her uncle,
Harav Aharon Soloveitchik zt'l. At that time my wife asked him if she
needed to wear a shaitel at the wedding. He responded "Of course not -
as long as your veil covers your hair from here (pointing to the
hairline), you're fine." We did not discuss at what point doing such
became a Halachik necessity, but he made it clear that her hair needed
to be covered "at the wedding."
Yehudah Prero
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From: Perets Mett <p.mett@...>
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 23:16:10 +0000
Subject: Life-Cycle Customs
Bernard Raab wrote:
> Many thanks for this summary. I recently heard a lecture on the Jewish
> Life-Cycle to a generally non-orthodox and some non-Jewish audience,
> in which the lecturer went from Brit-milah or naming ceremony to the
> "upsheren" ceremony as next event on the list, and followed by Bar- or
> Bat-Mitzvah. There was no hint that these events are anything but
> totally accepted on the same level of observance. The lecturer was a
> YU faculty member.
Your lecturer missed out an important ceremony, the Chumash seudo at age
5. This is based on the passage 'ben chomeish lemikro' in maseches Ovos.
So it takes place between the peyos (first haircut, typically at age 3)
and barmitsvo.
Perets Mett
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From: Russell J Hendel <rjhendel@...>
Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 12:42:52 -0500
Subject: RE: Talking to women
Two examples come to mind. The talmud relates that one day one of the
Tanaaim or Emoraim (I think Ravah) came home and kissed his wife a bit
more passionately than usual. She asked what is going on and he
commented that one of the town prostitutes had returned. His wife
thereupon banished her from the town.
The other story involved my Grandmother: An elderly women was once
gabbing away at her for several hours. After she left one of my
Grandmother's friends asked her how she could endure her. My grandmother
politely replied that "we are all created in Gods image"
I think the two stories speak for themselves. The word 'excessively' in
'dont speak to women excessively' is obviously context sensitive. It
**is** an obligation but an obligation depending upon context. Just
looking at the town prostitute was **excessive** for Ravah while
speaking for several hours was **not excessive** for my grandmother.
That being said I don't know what all the discussion is about. Each
instance of a male chatting to a female has to be judged in
context. That is all the law says. It couldnt possibly be saying
more. To put it another way if a guy says 'I think we have been chatting
too much' that should not be perceived as an insult but rather as
respectful comment.
It is true that almost all of Jewish law is operationally defined
(specific measures). But this law is specifically formulated in terms of
a subjective word, excessive. I might add that an important exception
occurs in the laws of Sabbath: It is a capital crime to carry 4 cubits
in the public domain. But the definition of cubit (for purposes of
capital punishment) differs--for each person it is the measurement of
their own cubit.
Russell Jay Hendel; http://www.Rashiyomi.com/
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From: Joseph Kaplan <penkap@...>
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 16:27:14 -0500
Subject: Upshirin
I think there is a social reason for Modern Orthodox Jews, who do not
have the custom of upshirin, not to adopt it. As someone pointed out to
me, many Modern Orthodox Jews continually grapple with male-female
differences that are required by halacha, and disparities between
participation in ritual. For such people, why take on a custom that
only adds yet another disparity, another rite of passage for boys and
not girls? This might not be enough of a reason not to do an upshirin
if that is ones custom, but I find the increasing number of Modern
Orthodox Jews having them troublesome.
Joseph Kaplan
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End of Volume 51 Issue 5
