Volume 51 Number 52
Produced: Wed Mar 8 6:40:16 EST 2006
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Avel during shloshim not eating meat
[Harlan Braude]
Common Mispronunciations
[Perry Zamek]
Credit for Thought without deed
[Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz]
Hasgachot on Chain Stores
[<ERSherer@...>]
hoishio no - hatslicho no
[Perets Mett]
Invite vs Call
[<ERSherer@...>]
K'Omrom - B'Omrom? (3)
[Andy Goldfinger, Orrin Tilevitz, Perets Mett]
Mile'el and Mile'ra (4)
[P.V. Viswanath, Art Werschulz, Perets Mett, Gilad J.
Gevaryahu]
Mispronunciations
[Stephen Phillips]
Penultimate/Ultimate stress
[Martin Stern]
Pronunciation
[Perets Mett]
Valentine's Day and New Year's Day
[Bernard Raab]
Wine in Talmudic times (was Avel during shloshim not eating meat)
[Martin Stern]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Harlan Braude <hbraude@...>
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 09:20:44 -0500
Subject: RE: Avel during shloshim not eating meat
> But to be fair one should rememeber that the wine drunk in Rabbinic
> times was an everyady beverage, and as such far less potent than what
> we drink today.
Which Rabbinic times? The Talmud records that wine (in their day) had to
be diluted with water to make it drinkable.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Perry Zamek <perryza@...>
Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2006 13:59:25 +0200
Subject: Common Mispronunciations
Further to the present thread, I would like to add one of my own pet
peeves: I have noticed many olim from the United States (particularly
there) who, it appears, have changed from Ashkenazi to Sephardi
pronunciation of Hebrew in their davenning - and, of course, somewhere
along the line they learned that most words in Hebrew are milra'
(accented on the last syllable). So they apply this rule willy-nilly,
including to segolate nouns e.g. melekh=king, where the accent should be
MEL-ekh, but they pronounce it melEKH.
Perry Zamek
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz <sabba.hillel@...>
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 18:44:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Credit for Thought without deed
> From: Daniel Geretz <dgeretz@...>
> In the spirit of Mishenichnas Adar Marbim B'Simcha:
> It seems that I can get "credit" for giving tzedakah to an
> organization which never cashes the check. What with all the
> expenditures for mishloach manot, hamentaschen, computer mishloach
> manot "reciprocals", single-malt scotch, stage makeup, and whatnot, I
> am a bit strapped for cash this month. Anyone out there who can post
> a list of organizations that do not cash tzedakah checks....
Actually, I have come across organizations that have cashed checks long
after I have voided them in my records. However, I believe that there
is supposed to be a time limit so that checks *must* be cashed within
six months or the banks will not honor them.
This reminds me of several jokes with a similar punchline.
Of course, the typical "Priest, Minister, and Rabbi" or "Catholic,
Protestant, and Jew" were involved in owing someone money who died ($100
each). At the funeral, the Catholic says, I cannot let the debt go
unpaid and puts a $100 bill in the coffin. The Protestant does the
same. So the Jew writes a check for $300 and takes $200 change.
Similarly, a miser insists that the wife put all the money in their
account in his coffin when he dies. Being a good wife, she withdraws
the money from the account and her friend sees her put a box in the
coffin. When the friend remonstrates, the wife says that she put the
money in her account and wrote a full check. "If he cashes the check,
he can have the money".
Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz | Said the fox to the fish, "Join me ashore"
<Sabba.Hillel@...> | The fish are the Jews, Torah is our water
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: <ERSherer@...>
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 11:04:56 EST
Subject: Re: Hasgachot on Chain Stores
The answer is, as is done with Dunkin Donuts in Boston and in
Chicago, the store that has a hashgocho has a sign on its door
announcing that it is kosher and forbidding customers from bringing in
any food of their own. If the store in Washington Square that is kosher
announces that fact to all who come in, there is no basis for any one to
infer that the stores in Cleveland Circle and Coolidge Corner are also
kosher.
The [fact] that the kosher store has a prominent sign (in Hebrew as
well as English) announcing the fact [is sufficient]. If you don't see
the sign it's not kosher. The Rabbinate should give people credit for
having that much intelligence.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Perets Mett <p.mett@...>
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 12:28:54 +0000
Subject: Re: hoishio no - hatslicho no
Meylekh Viswanath wrote:
> I haven't been able to figure out why there's a difference between
> hatslikha and hoshia, in terms of the stress. Anybody know?
That is indeed what the Minchath Shai found so puzzling, too.
Perets Mett
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: <ERSherer@...>
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 10:50:06 EST
Subject: Re: Invite vs Call
<< Do khasidim these days use "rufen" for "invite?" >>
"Rufen" means "called". The call (telephone) might include an
invitation or may involve no more than to wish a mazeltov.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Andy Goldfinger <Andy.Goldfinger@...>
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 07:55:56 -0500
Subject: K'Omrom - B'Omrom?
In the Shearith Israel shul in Balitimore, I remember Chazan D. Baum
laining it this way.
-- Andy Goldfinger
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Orrin Tilevitz <tilevitzo@...>
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 14:36:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: K'Omrom - B'Omrom?
A learned man--he sold seform and other Judaica-- I knew, now Z'l,
layned this way, and when I asked him why, his answer was, as I recall,
"it's Purim". I then asked my rav, who has a distinguished eastern
European pedigree, and was told that there is no such minhag.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Perets Mett <p.mett@...>
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 12:13:07 +0000
Subject: Re: K'Omrom - B'Omrom?
k'omrom (for b'omrom) is a standard kri-ksiv, and normative practice
(which I have always followed) is to read the kri only.
But I have heard both being read, on more than occasion.
Perets Mett
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: P.V. Viswanath <pviswanath@...>
Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2006 18:23:19 -0500
Subject: Mile'el and Mile'ra
In mail-jewish Vol. 51 #48, Ben Katz asked:
> I probably should know this, but don't.
> Why is it called mile'ra when the accent is on the last
>syllable? Mile'el I understand, from the word for "l'eil", "before";
>shouldn't the opposite word then be something like "mile'kamon", from
>"lekamon", ahead?
I don't remember where I saw this, but I read that miler'a comes from
mi-le-ar'a, that is, from the earth/ground; mile'el is from above, so it
makes sense.
Meylekh
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Art Werschulz <agw@...>
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 10:19:01 -0500
Subject: Mile'el and Mile'ra
Ben Katz <bkatz@...> wrote:
> Why is it called mile'ra when the accent is on the last syllable?
ISTR hearing that it has something to do with "ara" ("earth"), so that
the accent is attached to the ground. YMMV.
Art Werschulz (8-{)} "Metaphors be with you." -- bumper sticker
GCS/M (GAT): d? -p+ c++ l u+(-) e--- m* s n+ h f g+ w+ t++ r- y?
Internet: agw STRUDEL cs.columbia.edu
ATTnet: Columbia U. (212) 939-7060, Fordham U. (212) 636-6325
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Perets Mett <p.mett@...>
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 12:17:09 +0000
Subject: Re: Mile'el and Mile'ra
mileil means 'above' (l'eilo is the targum of l'malo)
milra means 'below'.
Here 'above' means before and below means after.
You might like to compare this with the English usage of the Latin words
supra and infra to mean previous and following text.
Perets Mett
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: <Gevaryahu@...> (Gilad J. Gevaryahu)
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 09:28:31 EST
Subject: Mile'el and Mile'ra
It is done visually as if the word starts at the top and goes down.
Mile'el is above and Mile'ra is a combination of "min" [i.e., from]
"le"-ar{'ah} [i.e., to the ground] roughly: in the direction of the
ground. My mile'ra explanation is based on Even Shoshan dictionary.
Gilad J. Gevaryahu
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Stephen Phillips <admin@...>
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 12:27:46 +0000
Subject: Re: Mispronunciations
> From: <ERSherer@...>
> How about "Shalom Aleichem malachei hashalom ...miMelech Malachei
> (instead of Malchei) hamelochim?
Different girsos [texts]. Ashkenazim (AFAIAA) generally say "miMelech"
but I recall seeing a psak (Sefardi, I think) that this is wrong.
However, "Minhag Yisroel Torah Hi".
Stephen Phillips
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2006 12:20:26 +0000
Subject: Penultimate/Ultimate stress
On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 12:09:44 -0500, P.V. Viswanath <pviswanath@...>
wrote:
> I haven't been able to figure out why there's a difference between
> hatslikha and hoshia, in terms of the stress. Anybody know?
Hatslichah comes from the root tsaddi-lamed-chet, none of whose letters
gets 'lost' in this form, and is therefore, as is normally the case in
Hebrew, mil'eil. Hoshi'ah is from the root yod-shin-ayin which loses its
first letter and therefore brings the stress back to make it mil'el.
Martin Stern
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Perets Mett <p.mett@...>
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 12:34:18 +0000
Subject: Pronunciation
Shimon Lebowitz asked:
> Will we start claiming that people who say 'ahh' for 'R' don't speak
> English correctly, just because they are from some particular
> geographical area, and that is their accent?
They most certainly speak English correctly.
But when they transfer their silent 'R' in final position to Hebrew then
they are mispronouncing words.
A reish in final position should be pronounced identically with a reish
in any other position.
Perets
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Bernard Raab <beraab@...>
Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2006 02:56:39 -0500
Subject: Valentine's Day and New Year's Day
>From: Orrin Tilevitz :
>Let's back up for a second. One of the technical reasons why attending
>a new year's eve party is forbidden is 'lo telchu bechokot hagoi',
>which is lav #262 in the sefer hachinuch. I was merely, using one of
>Rabbi Broyde's criteria, trying to explain why this prohibition might
>not apply to valentine's day. This criterion is that the practice must
>not inconsistent with Jewish tradition. You will first have to
>concede - otherwise there is nothing for us to talk about - that
>
>(1) there is nothing in Jewish tradition that marks January 1 as the
>beginning of a new year;
>(2) there is nothing in Jewish tradition that makes the beginning of a
>new year - any new year - a time for revelry;
>(3) the only personal new year we observe - Rosh Hashana - is a time not
>for revelry but for serious prayer; and
>(4) in Jewish tradition, we wish others a 'happy and healthy new year'
>before Rosh Hashana and at no other time.
There is nothing in Jewish tradition which suggests the celebration of
birthdays (other than Bar or Bat Mitzvah), yet most of us mark the day
with gifts and/or parties.
There is nothing in Jewish tradition which suggests that Sunday is
anything but a workday.
There is nothing in Jewish tradition to encourage the playing of music
for sheer enjoyment.
There is nothing in Jewish tradition to encourage the enjoyment of
secular literature or poetry.
There is nothing in Jewish tradition to suggest that all men must dress
in black and white.
Throughout most of Jewish history we have lived among non-Jews, and like
it or not we have assimilated large parts of our culture from the
surrounding societies, even much that we now regard as Jewish, for
example in food, music and modes of dress. Admitedly, much of popular
culture today is worse that worthless, and is well avoided. But what we
must guard against is the acceptance of their religious beliefs and
practices; the real "chukot hagoim". All the rest is personal choice.
There may be some (or many) among us who eschew reading secular
literature or listening to secular music of any kind, but to label all
such things as outside Jewish tradition is to imply that they are really
forbidden to the faithful. This is the direction of obscurantism and
ultimate cultural decline. Cool it.
b'shalom--Bernie R.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2006 11:57:58 +0000
Subject: Wine in Talmudic times (was Avel during shloshim not eating meat)
On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 13:41:26 +0200, Yehonatan Chipman
<yonarand@...> wrote:
> As for alcohol, the gemara early in Ch. 1 of Ketubot says that one
> should not drink more than ten (!) cups of wine at a house of mourning
> (i.e., during shivah), to avoid excessive levity -- meaning, that they
> did drink wine. But to be fair one should remember that the wine drunk
> in Rabbinic times was an everyady beverage, and as such far less
> potent than what we drink today.
The custom was to dilute all wine, at least 3 parts water to 1 part wine
(Shabb.122a) so it cannot have had more than about 3% alcohol. Because
of the difficulty of obtaining safe drinking water in those times, this
mixture would nowadays probably be considered as disinfected water
rather than wine!
Martin Stern
----------------------------------------------------------------------
End of Volume 51 Issue 52