Volume 52 Number 15
Produced: Wed Jun 14 5:26:18 EDT 2006
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Battery Farms and Eggs (5)
[David Charlap, Mark Goldin, Perets Mett, Martin Stern, W.
Baker]
Gabbaim
[Carl Singer]
Kaddish D'rabbanim (2)
[SBA, Shimon Lebowitz]
Kaddish D'rabbanim / Gabbai's role & responsibilities.
[Carl A. Singer]
Kids on Kabbalah Night
[Jeanette Friedman]
Metzitzah Be Peh
[Rabbi Meir Wise]
The Origin of Tikkun Leil Shavout
[Brandon Raff]
Staying up all night on Shavuos
[Ira Bauman]
Staying up on Shavuot night
[Rabbi Meir Wise]
Women saying Kaddish - clarification
[Martin Stern]
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From: David Charlap <shamino@...>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 13:15:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Battery Farms and Eggs
David Ziants wrote:
> A Rav told me that we can be lenient concerning "blood spots" in eggs
> that come from battery farms. Most eggs in my locale, that are
> purchased in a shop, are of this type. For example. it is enough to
> remove the spot and it is not necessary to throw out the whole egg. I
> guess (without knowing for certain so someone please correct me if I
> am wrong) the rationale is that it is not a real halachic blood spot
> because the egg has to be natural for this. On the other hand, one
> still does not want to eat what looks like blood.
>
> I don't know the technical details of battery farms, except the eggs
> are grown artificially and without a mother.
I think you've got some facts wrong here.
A quick Google search on battery farms shows pretty clearly what these
are. They are high-density cage systems where hens are kept confined
and subjected to conditions that maximize egg production. Some consider
them cruel, and some people want them to be banned, but nobody says that
the eggs are created artificially!
The hens in these farms are never allowed near roosters, so the eggs can
never be fertilized (hens will lay eggs whether or not there is a
rooster present.) These eggs have no father. They absolutely have a
mother, however - they were laid from a hen, just like all chicken-eggs
are.
I suspect that your rabbi's decision is based on the fact that there is
no chance for an egg from such a farm to be fertilized. If he thinks
that there is no mother (that is, hen), then he is mistaken.
-- David
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From: Mark Goldin <goldinfamily@...>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 22:44:03 -0700
Subject: Battery Farms and Eggs
The eggs are most certainly not grown artificially! Battery farms
consist of row upon row of densely packed caged hens. Your eggs come
from a live animal which lives out its short life pumping out an
unnatural number of eggs in miserable, painful conditions. The halachic
question should really be about whether it is desirable to benefit from
the animal's suffering. Wherever possible, you should try very hard to
obtain your eggs from a reliably free- range source.
There is no possibility that the egg has been fertilized, and perhaps
that explains the leniency.
Mark Goldin
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From: Perets Mett <p.mett@...>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 11:33:13 +0100
Subject: Battery Farms and Eggs
Of course an egg must have a 'mother', i.e the hen which laid it. David
means 'without a father'
Actually, battery farms are a red herring here. The issue is whether
there are any male birds in the flock. All commercial egg production
systems (including free-range) remove male chicks.
The kulo which David refers to applies whenever there are no male
birds. The eggs are then described by chazal as "safno me'aro" . These
eggs cannot hatch not live birds.
Whether or not one should rely on this kulo is matter for your LOR.
Perets Mett
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From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 11:45:48 +0100
Subject: Re: Battery Farms and Eggs
Battery hens lay eggs so the eggs have a 'mother' and are not grown
artificially. However there are no males around so they do not have a
'father' and are therefore not fertile so no chick will hatch from them.
This is the rationale for treating apparent bloodspots leniently.
Martin Stern
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From: W. Baker <wbaker@...>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 09:39:41 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Battery Farms and Eggs
I am no posek, but I assume tht the reason for the leniency is tht the
hens never come into contact with any roosters, so the egg could not be
fertilized, which is the usual source of the blood spot.
Wendy Baker
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From: Carl Singer <csngr@...>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 07:48:11 -0400
Subject: Gabbaim
I wanted to add that for most of my life (since my Bar Mitzvah at least)
I've been in shuls with outstanding gabbaim. Remarkably, I still
remember their names and faces -- the one thing though that stands as a
common trait among all of them is that they were virtually invisible
during davening. Hamavdil, like a good referee during a sporting event
-- you hardly know he's there.
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From: SBA <sba@...>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 19:48:00 +1000
Subject: Kaddish D'rabbanim
From: Lawrence Kobrin <>
> no one seems to note the thorough "ceremonialization"
> of kaddish d'rabonon. Designed as a response to learning,
> as its text indicates, for the most part it
> is said only after the most formalized "learning," as where we mumble
> through the 13 Midot in the morning, or the routine of a 30 second dvar
> halacha at the end of davening in the morning, but rarely said after
> legitimate learning of some subject, as where there is a talk on some
> halachic subject. In fact, I have seen a gabbai pointedly refrain from
> starting the rabbonon kaddish where he did not think the delivery worthy
> of it.
IIANM, Kaddish Derabonon should be said only after a Dvar Agada - rather
than following Halacha or Mishna/gemara.
That is why you'll ususally hear the magid shiur say 'Reb Chananya ben
Akashya omer etc" - so that the previous studying [of whatever]
qualifies for the Kaddish derabonon.
SBA
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From: Shimon Lebowitz <shimonl@...>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 18:06:29 +0300
Subject: Re: Kaddish D'rabbanim
Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...> wrote:
> I often wonder about that. First, one needs at least three pesuqim to
> justify qaddish, and Shir Hakavod (to call it by its name) ends with
> only two. But even worse, many shuls drop the first of the two and then
> recite qaddish after a single passuq.
AFAIR, when Rav Henkin was saying kaddish, he skipped that one (even
though others in the shul do say it).
Shimon
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From: Carl A. Singer <casinger@...>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 06:04:52 -0400
Subject: Kaddish D'rabbanim / Gabbai's role & responsibilities.
From: Lawrence Kobrin <kobrinl@...>
> Dov Bloom (in 52:12) points out the inconsistency of the general rule
> against overdoing the saying of Kaddish (by men or women) with the
> actual practice in most shuels. Moreover, in the same way, no one seems
> to note the thorough "ceremonialization" of kaddish d'rabonon. Designed
> as a response to learning, as its text indicates, for the most part it
> is said only after the most formalized "learning," as where we mumble
> through the 13 Midot in the morning, or the routine of a 30 second dvar
> halacha at the end of davening in the morning, but rarely said after
> legitimate learning of some subject, as where there is a talk on some
> halachic subject. In fact, I have seen a gabbai pointedly refrain from
> starting the rabbonon kaddish where he did not think the delivery worthy
> of it.
The characterization of mumbling through the 13 Midot or a 30 second
dvar torah should be saved for debate 101. In many shuls there is a
serious dvar torah (measured both in content and in elapsed time.)
... and who died and made the Gabbai "king"
Which starts a whole other chain of discussion. One must assume that
the Gabbai is fully aware of the minhagim of the shul and the wishes of
the Morah D'asrah of the shul.
When things are going "smoothly" this is not an issue. BUT when there
is a disagreement (do we or don't we say ___) or whatever, The Gabbai's
role & responsibility may come under a microscope -- especially if (a)
he's not fully vested (as above re: minhagim of shul) or (b) if he leans
on rulings from his (Yeshiva) Rebbe rather than the Rav of the shul or
(c) when there are others at the minyan who are much more knowledgeable.
Carl
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From: <FriedmanJ@...> (Jeanette Friedman)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 07:11:18 EDT
Subject: Kids on Kabbalah Night
once again, there is a failure of communication and common sense how
many kabbalists are there in the jewish world, after all....and did
madonna stay up all night learning? what is it about the word minhag
that isn't understood? when did minhag for kabbalists become halakha
for the eruv rav (yeah, I said it, the eruv rav), and when did the
halakha become a chumrah? seems to me the issue here is really
disrespect one for the other.
jeanette
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From: <Meirhwise@...> (Rabbi Meir Wise)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 05:43:01 EDT
Subject: Re: Metzitzah Be Peh
My chevruta - Rabbi Azriel (Geoffrey) Hyman wrote a fine study on
Metzitzah Be Peh which was subsequently published in Tradition (without
his foreknowledge or a chance to correct it!)
It would be late 70s early 80s.
Rabbi Meir Wise, London
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From: Brandon Raff <Brandon@...>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 22:23:18 +0200
Subject: Re: The Origin of Tikkun Leil Shavout
Rabbi Yosef Karo - the Beit Yosef and author of the Shulchan Aruch - was
born in 1488. Together with Rabbi Shlomo Alkabetz - the composer of
'Lecha dodi,' the Shelah HaKodesh and seven other Sages, they decided
one Shavout evening to learn throughout the night. As the Shelah
HaKodesh recounts in his commentary on Messechet (tractate) Shavuot, at
mid-night that evening a malach ('angel') appeared to the Beit Yosef and
began teaching him Torah. This malach would appear to him regularly
thereafter. The book "Magid Meisharim" (the Speaker of Straight Things)
details what the malach taught him.
In the years that followed these Sages continued the practice of learning
Torah the whole night of Shavuot.
Regards
Brandon Raff
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From: <Yisyis@...> (Ira Bauman)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 22:15:34 EDT
Subject: Staying up all night on Shavuos
The reason that I learned for the custom of staying up all night
learning on shavuos is that the b'nei yisroel erred by sleeping the
night before revelation at Sinai. Our staying up all night is to
correct that mistake.
I'm not sure how to understand that. If I were to be told that the most
important day of my life and the most meaningful experience of my life
would take place at noon tomorrow, I think the last thought that would
occur to me is "How about if I pull an all-nighter tonight and encounter
that experience with 30 hours of sleeplessness and a state of
semi-consciousness". In fact, if I thought my excitement would lead to
sleepnessness, I would do everything that I know that works for me to
get that sleep, whether it be potions, counting sheep or whatever works.
I'd want to be at my best for an event like Maamad Har Sinai. Why the
Jewish people were castigated for not choosing sleeplessness is beyond
me. Any thoughts?
Ira Bauman
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From: <Meirhwise@...> (Rabbi Meir Wise)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 07:02:33 EDT
Subject: Re: Staying up on Shavuot night
Staying up on Shavuot night is a time honoured custom = minhag. Staying
up on Seder night until overtaken by sleep (or the students say that it
is time for shacharit) is a Din= law recorded by the Shulchan Arukh. So
it seems that many people have their priorities wrong.
Having said that I used to return home and chap a few hours sleep ready
to look after my children while my wife went to shul. On shabbat I
davened at hashkama and looked after my children while my wife went to
shul. I thought that all decent husbands did that!
Rabbi Meir Wise
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From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 11:54:45 +0100
Subject: Re: Women saying Kaddish - clarification
On Mon, 12 Jun 2006 18:49:21 +0300, Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...> wrote:
> Regarding skipping qaddish, my understanding is that the qaddish after
> `Aleinu leshabe`ah **needs to be** recited according only to the Rema
> and no other poseq. Does anyone else hold that way?
I understood that we hold that 'uvenei Ashkenaz yots'im beyad Rema!'
Martin Stern
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End of Volume 52 Issue 15