Volume 52 Number 35
Produced: Fri Jun 30 5:27:01 EDT 2006
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Dubious leadership
[Joseph Ginzberg]
Rabbi Ovadia Yosef (3)
[Shoshana L. Boublil, Ari Trachtenberg, Ken Bloom]
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From: Joseph Ginzberg <jgbiz120@...>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:49:35 -0400
Subject: Dubious leadership
>earing no clothing." Our rabbinic leadership has shown itself full of
>moral decay (issues of sexual abuse, of covering up sexual abuse, the
>various scandalim with the rabbanut, the list is too long and too
>sordid). What should be our response? To emulate? To ignore? Or
>rather to demand of our leaders that they lead with midot as well as in
>learning? But what is to be done when the community is either
>indifferent to the issues or so wrapped up in a papal-like view of
>infallability of its leaders that it believes criticism of rabbis is an
>issur karet?
Without having yet formulated my own spiritual response, may I ask what
the alternative is?
Given the many financial and other unpleasant revelations about almost
every "gadol", who are we then to follow? The formulators of the
"Takanos"? The invisible "Moetzes"? The MO Rabbinate with their own
visible flaws?
It's not as if there is ANY faction that has produced a group of totally
scandal-free Rabbinic leaders....
Perhaps the best/only thing is just to shrug and say tehilim.
Yossi Ginzberg
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From: Shoshana L. Boublil <toramada@...>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:59:29 +0200
Subject: Re: Rabbi Ovadia Yosef
I hate to repeat myself, but apparently I have to:
> From: Anonymous
> I have a more fundamental issue with Rabbi Yosef. I have found his
> commentary on some matters (in particular the reasons for hurricane
> Katrina to have caused so mush damage and suffering in New Orleans) to
> be so far beyond the pale of reasonable theology, not to mention
> completely at odds with the facts of the world we live in (disasters do
> not strike only places of debauchery) that I can no longer view Rabbi
> Yosef as a legitimate posek or gadol. Add to these issues the hubris
> involved in making pronouncements about G-d's will (for what else is it
> when one opines on the reason a hurricane struck a particular location?)
> - does he see himself as a posek or as a navi, one must wonder.
Yes, one must indeed wonder. I don't know if you are Ashkenazi or
Sephardi. In this case -- it makes a difference. You'll see why
shortly.
Also, how did you hear what he said? Who told you that he said whatever
it was you have a problem with?
The answer to this question is part of the answer to the whole
issue. I'll get to it shortly.
> This is a very serious matter to me - indeed one that is causing a
> small crisis of faith. If our appointed interpreters of G-d's law can
> be so wrong-headed in their thinking, there is something seriously
> amiss in our community - I mean the entire halachically committed
> community - for our tolerance and support of such leaders. Even
> people I know who found Rabbi Yosef's comments utterly repugnant were
> content to dismiss them as him "having gone a little too far." I have
> not heard even once in a private conversation on the matter (forget
> about public pronouncements) that one ought to question his
> credentials as a claimed gadol and posek.
Maybe there is a reason you are ignorant of. It would have said much
for you if in ranting against Rav Yosef's hubris, you would have found
the humility to ask whether then proclaim.
And now for the answer. As I have explained in the past there is a
special job, that exists only in Sephardi commuties, and not in all of
them. Besides the Rabbi, Chazan, Gabai etc. there is a person called
"The MoChi'ach".
The personal requirements;
a)Tamim
b) Yere Shamayim
c) That people are willing to listen to him
d)Gadol BaTorah
etc.
So, apparently not everyone can apply. Even in a community with many
rabbis, few are acceptable to the public as a Mochi'ach. It is a job
with a grave responsibility: He is supposed to stand tall and call the
members of the community to order.
Now, while in the Western civilization, there are specific types of
discourse that are encouraged, and others that are discouraged and even
frowend upon, in the Sephardi Minhag there are different parameters.
The Mochi'ach talks in shul. During Shiv'a at the home of a mourner.
Whenever there is a gathering WILLING TO LISTEN TO HIM(!). But what he
says is extremely harsh. The style is taken from some of the more
provocative Nevu'ot, where all the ills of the world are assigned to the
extremely bad behavior of Israel. Remember, the people sitting and
listening are Talmidei Chachamim; regular religious jews, and yet the
Mochia'ch will call them to order for violating the most serious sins in
the Torah reminding them in the most picturesque language possible of
the fate fo those who don't do Teshuva.
For someone who wasn't raised with this style of discourse -- it is
shocking. I'll never forget the 1st time I heard a Mochiach, R'
Baraness ZT"L of Pardes Chana. Here were these wonderful religious men
and women sitting and listening to someone saying that they the worst
sinners possible! But apparently, this is the style -- and it
supposedly brings people to check their actions and do Teshuva.
Rav Ovadia Yosef has been acting over the past 10 years (at least) as
the Mochi'ach of his community and shul. He does not speak in public -
he speaks as a Mochiach ONLY in his shul, and over the airwaves to those
who CHOSE to listen in. They, this public, know and understand why and
how he speaks and take it for what it is -- and NO MORE!
Over the last 5 or so years, the press has decided to show up, without
invitation, and quote selected "pearls". They don't know what a
Mochi'ach is nor do they care. People who hear the quotations, and
don't bother to find out, want Rav Ovadia to shut up, not realizing that
he is fulfilling a time-honored need in his community.
The proof of all this? His actions and the quotes of what he said when
he was still a public figure, the Rishon LeTzion. At that time, he was
not a Mochi'ach and his lectures were in a completely different style.
Even today, when he gives lectures outside of these specific gatherings,
you won't hear this problematic style of discourse.
So, may Hashem bring Mashi'ach soon.
Shoshana L. Boublil
Israel
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From: Ari Trachtenberg <trachten@...>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:59:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Rabbi Ovadia Yosef
I think that these are excellent and appropriate questions. We should
hold our rabbis and leaders to the highest standards ... however, we
also have a requirement from pirkei avot "al tityaesh min hapuranut"
(loosely: don't get weary from tragedies, but puranut has the root
peh-resh-ayin which is related to wildness, as in that of man). One of
our jobs is to bring G-d's will into the world, in spite of some of our
leaders' failures.
Best,
Ari Trachtenberg, Boston University
http://people.bu.edu/trachten mailto:<trachten@...>
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From: Ken Bloom <kbloom@...>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:08:43 -0500
Subject: Re: Rabbi Ovadia Yosef
Natural (and other) disasters happen for a reason. We are expected to
learn lessons from these disasters and improve in our avodat hashem by
learning these lessons. Our chachimim can give us advice in this regard,
and may be able to see things that we can't. Therefore, R' Ovadia can
make such pronouncements for us to learn from.
Additionally, he is quoted as saying something to the effect that
Hurricaine Katrina is a punishment for the withdrawal. There are
certainly enough parallels that one could conclude without too much of a
leap of imagaination that Katrina was a midah k'neged midah punishment
for the US urging disengagement.
I personally haven't heard anything controversial that R' Ovadia has
said, except (a) out of context, (b) through the newspaper, and (c) in
translation. And not even through the newspaper, rather I've heard what
other people have told me the newspapers said. Hardly enough for me to
reliably conclude that he said what I heard he said. I would like to
know how I should take these comments which are quoted in the news, and
I plan to ask my rabbi (who is a talmid of R' Ovadia) how to take these
comments, but I'm waiting for the next one, which hopefully I will have
more information (at the very least, an exact quote taken from an
American newspaper, but I think my Hebrew has gotten good enough that I
should be able to look up the corresponding article in Hebrew too), so
that I can at least relay exactly what it was I heard that I find
difficult.
You haven't related what comments it is that you find difficult. What
statements have you heard, and where have you heard them from? Do you
have direct enough statements to believe you reliably heard what he said
in context? In what way are these comments "beyond reasonable theology"?
(Remember that newspapers are inclined toward sensationalism.)
> This is a very serious matter to me - indeed one that is causing a
> small crisis of faith. If our appointed interpreters of G-d's law can
> be so wrong-headed in their thinking, there is something seriously
> amiss in our community - I mean the entire halachically committed
> community - for our tolerance and support of such leaders.
We'd like to help, but you seem to have moved on from trying to
understand what was said, and you have moved to dismissing his
credentials as a leader.
> Even people I know who found Rabbi Yosef's comments utterly repugnant
> were content to dismiss them as him "having gone a little too far." I
> have not heard even once in a private conversation on the matter
> (forget about public pronouncements) that one ought to question his
> credentials as a claimed gadol and posek. I for one do not believe
> one can seperate the psak from the man - if he believes what he said
> to be true (and moreover lacks the sechel to keep such comments to
> himself) then I don't see how knowing shas and all the rishonim
> backwards and forwards can redeem what is clealry a flawed
> understanding of the world.
How clearly is it a flawed understanding of the world? Have you read R'
Ovadia's teshuvot (Yabia Omer, Yecheve Da'at), or his halachic works
(Halichot Olam)? Or are you just basing your comments on a few newspaper
quotes. Teshuvot can be reviewed and stand on their own reasoning --
although the stature of the posek is certainly important, you can see
from his teshuvot whether his understanding of the world is accurate.
> I know most will find my words shocking and even repugnant but, for me
> at least - eit laasot lehashem. Someone has to say "the emporer is
> wearing no clothing." Our rabbinic leadership has shown itself full of
> moral decay (issues of sexual abuse, of covering up sexual abuse, the
> various scandalim with the rabbanut, the list is too long and too
> sordid).
Don't you dare equate R' Ovadia to these abuses. Having statements about
current events that you don't understand and that you find difficult is
*not* anywhere near equivalent.
--Ken Bloom
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End of Volume 52 Issue 35
