Volume 53 Number 62 Produced: Sun Jan 7 14:39:18 EST 2007 Subjects Discussed In This Issue: Battery [Carl Singer] "Impostors" in hasidic garb [Meir Shinnar] Maryland divorce legislation [Bernard Katz] Respect for Rabbanim (2) [Leah S. Gordon, Shayna Kravetz] "Us" vs. "Them" [Shmuel Himelstein] Yefas To'ar [Ben Katz] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Carl Singer <casinger@...> Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 08:05:36 -0500 Subject: Battery > I thank Tzvi, for responding to my initial legal opinion that placing > scarfs over exposed women's parts was not a tort. According to Tzvi a > battery is "any harmful or degrading contact on the person of > another." > > Tzvi's comments allow me to focus on the lack of understanding of the > charedi position. They are not trying to harm or degrade anyone. Based > on my analysis below I would respectfully submit that no battery has > been committed. It would be interesting to have both a US and an Israeli attorney comment on the above analysis. I believe Battery is in the eye of the beholder (recipient / victim) NOT in the judgment of the actor. Thus (and this is an extreme example) if I believe that you are warm and I, out of the generosity of my kindness-filled, good heart, pour a bucket water onto your head -- and you aren't happy with the drenching and gave no consent for same -- this is battery. If, however, your hair is on fire (perhaps unbeknownst to you) and I pour a bucket of water onto your head, then we have a different situation -- let's ask a lawyer. If the charedi "actor" acts upon his view -- is a bare arm equivalent to hair on fire -- it is still battery. battery \ba-t(e-)re\ noun pl batteries [MF batterie, fr. OF, fr. battre to beat, fr. L battuere] (1531) 1a : the act of battering or beating 2b : an offensive touching or use of force on a person without the person's consent compare assault 2a assault \e-solt\ noun [ME assaut, fr. OF, fr. (assumed) VL assaltus, fr. assalire] (14c) 2a : a threat or attempt to inflict offensive physical contact or bodily harm on a person (as by lifting a fist in a threatening manner) that puts the person in immediate danger of or in apprehension of such harm or contact compare battery 1b (C) 1996 Zane Publishing, Inc. and Merriam-Webster, Incorporated Carl Singer ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Meir Shinnar <chidekel@...> Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 17:42:36 -0500 Subject: "Impostors" in hasidic garb RP Mett >Satmar does not hold rallies calling for the destruction of Israel. >They **do** have an anti-Zionist philosophy as spelt out in Vayoel >Moshe. Just because the Zionists cannot tolerate that philosophy does >make it any less valid. The issue is not philosophy - I may disagree with philosophy, but I don't have visions behind the curtain to know the ultimate theological truth. The issue is actions. Satmar perhaps does not hold rallies calling for the destruction of Israel - (not sure about the accuracy of that - I remember quite a few ) but they do hold public rallies and statements that the state of Israel should not exist - not merely for internal consumption. Eg, the CRC, main rabbinc organization for satmar related rabbis in America, put out an advertisement in the NY Times that Israel should not exist. The real, rather than stylistic, difference between this and participating in a PLO rally is one that I, for one, find difficult to fathom. I would note that already in the 1960s, RYE Henkin, not a zionist, wrote articles saying that the leadership of the satmar had to be responsible for articles in its press that Israel should be destroyed - because this was tantamount ot mesira. This is a different issue than one's view on the theological role of Israel. WRT the left - one does expect more from people who claim be to observant. The left gets attacked on its own merits. The shita of satmar has a place in a democracy, as do attacks on that shita - but calls which will lead to the murder of Jews, while they may be allowed in a democracy, have no role in the torah community. Meir Shinnar ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bernard Katz <bkatz@...> Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 18:37:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Maryland divorce legislation Irwin Weiss writes that a couple of delegates are proposing to introduce legislation in Maryland to attempt to deal with the husband who refuses to give a get. He says that > the proposed legislation, which has the support of the local Orthodox > Rabbinate, would allow a woman (or man) in a civil divorce to request > that the other party state, under penalty of perjury, that he (or she) > has taken all steps solely within that person's control to remove all > religious barriers to remarriage by the other party. If such a request > is made, the civil court hearing the divorce would be prohibited from > granting the divorce/annulment without the statement. I am neither a lawyer nor an expert on First Amendment law, but I have a hard time seeing why this would not interfere with the free exercise of religion. In any case, I would be strongly opposed to such legislation. I don't think that the courts in the US (or in Canada, where I live) have any business trying to secure compliance with the strictures of any religion. A more plausible approach, to my mind, would be for the Rabbinate to require that a couple getting married enter into a civil agreement before the marriage (a pre-nup, in effect) that would bind the parties to appropriate actions in case the marriage breaks down. Obviously, the courts can, and should, enforce civil agreements even when they concern religious matters. Even if the courts were reluctant to order specific performance (because of its religious nature), they could regard non-compliance with the civil undertaking as an impediment to civil divorce and/or (as lawyers say) impose substantial penalties. Bernard Katz ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Leah S. Gordon <leah@...> Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 05:46:40 -0800 Subject: Respect for Rabbanim Jeanette Friedman questioned the practices of two rabbis who made seemingly anti-women decisions publicly (cancelling an aguna conference and refusing to speak to a question of shalom bayit). "S" Wise replied: >speaks much about the person. I actually find it quite disturbing to >hear the manner of such criticism from a person who may or may not have >legitimate complaint. Well, I find it quite disturbing to see someone evaluate another person's complaint legitimacy in such an off-hand manner. S. Wise may never have been an agunah, or faced some of these domestic abuse issues, but when someone has, then I say she is totally justified in respecting people who acknowledge those issues more than those who do not. I have been fortunate not to have faced these issues that Ms. Friedman mentions first-hand, but I can completely appreciate her point of view on the matter, and her opinion of these rabbis matters to me. Just because someone is a rabbi doesn't exempt them from derech eretz - the opposite is true. Unfortunately, there is usually too little (not too much!!) questioning of what someone says based on the merit of the statement instead of the perceived merit of the person. The sooner this changes, the better. --Leah S. R. Gordon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Shayna Kravetz <skravetz@...> Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 07:46:52 -0500 Subject: Re: Respect for Rabbanim After Jeanette Friedman <FriedmanJ@...> wrote in part: > If the rabbanim want respect, let them earn it and then went on to name various rabbis who had failed to earn her respect on certain issues, S. Wise <smwise3@...> replied: >Jeannette Friedman seems to have gotten carried away with her criticism >of the rabbonim. It appears because they don't meet her expectations, >they haven't earned respect in her eyes. <SNIP> The way one talks about >our Rabbonim speaks much about the person. I actually find it quite >disturbing to hear the manner of such criticism from a person who may >or may not have legitimate complaint. It seems to me there is a distinction to be made between rebuking rabbanim in public and addressing them in private about their failings (perceived or actual). Notwithstanding the prominence of the rabbanim whom Ms Friedman names, I don't think the 'public figure' defence seen in US defamation law has any standing in halachah. Were she to write to these rabbis themselves -- even in precisely the same terms and with the same anger -- I would think that she was closer to the halachic understanding of tochachah. (Whether one should be mochiach another in anger is a separate question.) As far as I know, all the rabbis referred to are perfectly available to correspondence c/o their various institutions and, indeed, to telephone calls in some cases. If, as I suspect, Ms Friedman has indeed tried to contact these rabbis in private, I don't think their failure to reform and conform to her expectations justifies her choosing to rebuke them here. Not only is there an issue of kavod for talmidei chachamim (respect the office, if not the man); there is also, as S. Wise has pointed out, the effect of such speech on the speaker. It seems to me that it is always the better approach to assume that the other side is benign but perhaps misguided rather than malign or spiteful. With this approach, the question becomes not "Why haven't they stood up and said something?" but "How does their understanding of the issue differ from mine?" and "Is there some common ground that will respect both the reality of my experience and the power of their halachic approach?" I think that the anger that Ms Friedman expresses is proportionate to the power she believes these rabbanim capable of exercising in addressing the issues so important to her and, indeed, to Klal Yisrael. With this in mind, I would promote the idea of speaking to them respectfully in the discourse which is common to us all -- the discourse of halachah. Even if this lies uneasy in Ms Friedman's mouth (which I would not presume to know), I don't think that this would be hypocritical. And, frankly, if it is, I would prefer a hypocrisy that is productive and respectful to candor that is antagonistic and unsuccessful. We become what we pretend to be; speaking respectfully -- even if not heartfelt -- still ultimately promotes respect. Kol tuv and shabbat shalom from Shayna in Toronto ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Shmuel Himelstein <himels@...> Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 14:35:26 +0200 Subject: "Us" vs. "Them" In regard to the bus attack scandal (or should I be PC and say "the alleged bus attack"?), Freda Birnbaum writes that "It's fine to ask us to understand them. Let them try to understand us for a change." In this case, "us" refers to Religious Zionists, to which I am proud to belong, while "them" refers to (a few? Some? Most? All?) Haredim. I think that Freda has hit the nail on the head, and that's why it's hard to come to some modus vivendi between the groups. Basically, the Haredi attitude (and I spent over 7 years in a Haredi Yeshiva Gedola in the United States) is that their (the total Haredi) view is the only legitimate Halachic view. Anyone disagreeing is in the realm of a sinner, either through deliberate error or misguided thought. Thus there is absolutely no reason to try to understand us benighted souls. Only (probably in Mashiach's time) when all Halachic Jews unite with mutual respect can/will this divide be bridged. Pessimistically, Shmuel Himelstein P.S. In this realm, I'd like to convey an idea which occurred to me years ago. I was puzzled how the different groups of Jews will accept a single person as Mashiach. If he's a Lubavicher, Satmar will have no truck with him, and vice-versa, and so on for all the other distinctive groups. The answer to this problem lies, I believe, in the manna, where Chazal say that whatever a person wanted it to taste like was what it tasted like for him or her. Thus, the solution of the Mashiach problem is simple: to Lubavichers he will be a Lubavicher, to Satmars, a Satmar, etc. Q.E.D. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ben Katz <bkatz@...> Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 19:02:54 -0600 Subject: Re: Yefas To'ar >From: Ari Trachtenberg <trachten@...> > > From: David Riceman <driceman@...> > >> From: "Frank Silbermann" <fs@...> > >> it seems to me that if Yefas Toar were not already rabbinically > >> forbidden someone would have suggested its use as a solution to the > >> "who is a Jew(ish convert)?" controversey. That is, Reform Jews could > >> simply arrange for their gentile spouses to be "captured in battle" > >> (or purchased as a "slave"). > > > > How would this help? (i) yefas toar still requires a valid conversion > > (H. Melachim 8:5), and (ii) only applies in the context of a war > > (ibid. 8:3). > >Doesn't a valid conversion require the consent and will of the >convertee? If so, could a captured woman simply refuse to convert as a >means of avoiding marriage (this would seem to contradict the simple >meaning of the Torah). The Torah's institution of Yefat Toar is to correct the bediavad circumstance of a soldier raping a woman in the heat of a battle. This is not proper behavior, but it happens all the time unfortunately. The Torah thereby instituted a way for the woman to become the wife of the soldier. In antiquity (and probably in most of the non-Western world today) no woman in such a situation would refuse marriage. Ben Z. Katz, M.D. Children's Memorial Hospital, Division of Infectious Diseases 2300 Children's Plaza, Box # 20, Chicago, IL 60614 e-mail: <bkatz@...> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
End of Volume 53 Issue 62