Volume 53 Number 77
Produced: Sun Jan 14 21:12:05 EST 2007
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
First Class Brawls over Second-Class Seats (2)
[SBA, Leah S. Gordon]
Heter for Men and Women to be Jammed Together
[Stu Pilichowski]
Segregated Buses
[Joel Rich]
Segregated Buses -- A Question
[SBA]
What is a "Right"
[Russell J Hendel]
Which Seats are Best (buses)
[Leah S. Gordon]
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From: SBA <sba@...>
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 03:35:01 +1100
Subject: First Class Brawls over Second-Class Seats
From: Leah S. Gordon <>
> It is certainly bigotry to force people to the back-of-the-bus by
> reason of their sex. The best you could say is that it is
> halakhically-mandated-bigotry, but I don't think that even that is
> supportable by real halakha.
There are cases in halacha (and I am not saying that bus travel is
exactly the same matter) where Chazal say regarding a man walking past
women doing their washing on the river - when they could have gone an
alternative way, ["ikka darka achrina"], then he is considered a rasha.
Yes I realise that in that case the onus is indeed on the man to detour
- not the women. But it shows us that that where there is an opportunity
not to get up too close - one should.
Separating in busses is obviously not a halacha (otherwise unmixed ones
and even airplanes would be banned). But it is obviously preferable.
Remember that these innovations are for people in communities where the
sexes rarely mix, where they do not go to movies or watch TV and get
influenced by the loose morals and smut promoted there. They are people
who learn from a young age about the importance of shemiras einayim,
concepts which many in the observant non-Charedi world have hardly heard
of and of course then badly misunderstand the whole concept of Mehadrin
busses.
Would I be correct in presuming that many of those here who are upset
about the busses, are also not too happy about the daily bracha 'shelo
asani isha'?? Sounds like some halachik or rabbinic bigotry too. No?
And I suppose unmixed weddings and even the mechitzeh in Shul may bother
some here.
> I, for one, am not willing to accept a second-class seat so that
> someone won't have to look at me (!!). Would "SBA" be willing to do
> so?
Yes. If others felt so strongly about it, why not? So I did a chesed
with one or more men (and indeed women) who wish to travel in this
fashion. Most decent people do not refuse doing another Jew (or even
non-Jew) a favour.
And most, would not lower themselves to make scene - just to prove a
point. After all how long is that bus trip? 10 or 20 minutes? Is it
worth the hassle? I don't think so. Those who are so 'principled' about
it could end up having nasty battles several times each day.
And while I certainly don't wish to be mekatreg on Jewish women opposing
the separate busses, Japanese women have long ago complained about being
squashed up against men on trains. Nowadays on certain main lines have
their 'ladies only' carriages.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Ladies_Only_Train.jpg
Just imagine the outcry here if Egged tried THAT?
SBA
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From: Leah S. Gordon <leah@...>
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 08:19:13 -0800
Subject: Re: First Class Brawls over Second-Class Seats
SBA> Separating in busses is obviously not a halacha (otherwise
SBA> unmixed ones and even airplanes would be banned). But it is
SBA> obviously preferable.
Thank you. So please you (and others) stop saying "they're just obeying
halakha".
SBA> Remember that these innovations are for people in communities
SBA> where the sexes rarely mix, where they do not go to movies or
These people can have whatever "innovations" they like, as long as they
don't impose on the rest of the world.
SBA> watch TV and get influenced by the loose morals and smut
BA> promoted there. They are people who learn from a young age
I, for one, resent the implication that everyone outside the haredi
world (or everyone who watches TV for that matter) is "influenced by the
loose morals and smut". I know a lot of very moral people who are far
from being haredi. Many aren't even Jewish. And all have TV's, if that
is even relevant.
I really resent, also, the implication that the haredi world is on some
kind of holy pedestal to which we should all aspire. I view them as
fanatics who are going down a dangerous/destructive path, mistreating
women and others on the way.
SBA> about the importance of shemiras einayim, concepts which many
SBA> in the observant non-Charedi world have hardly heard of and
SBA> of course then badly misunderstand the whole concept of
SBA> Mehadrin busses.
To object is not to misunderstand. I understand the "whole concept". I
disagree with it.
SBA> Would I be correct in presuming that many of those here who
SBA> are upset about the busses, are also not too happy about the
SBA> daily bracha 'shelo asani isha'?? Sounds like some halachik
SBA> or rabbinic bigotry too. No? And I suppose unmixed weddings
SBA> and even the mechitzeh in Shul may bother some here.
I'd rather not address these various red herrings except to say that
each of these examples is different from the buses and from each other,
and thus this point is not germane to the discussion.
> I, for one, am not willing to accept a second-class seat so that
> someone won't have to look at me (!!). Would "SBA" be willing to do
> so?
SBA> Yes. If others felt so strongly about it, why not? So I did
SBA> a chesed with one or more men (and indeed women) who wish to
SBA> travel in this fashion. Most decent people do not refuse
SBA> doing another Jew (or even non-Jew) a favour.
That's kind of a backwards way to look at it. Would the "decent" haredi
men on the bus please do me a favor and offer me a front seat? I wish
to travel in that fashion.
SBA> And most, would not lower themselves to make scene - just to
SBA> prove a point. After all how long is that bus trip? 10 or 20
SBA> minutes? Is it worth the hassle? I don't think so. Those who
SBA> are so 'principled' about it could end up having nasty
SBA> battles several times each day.
Surely you realize that this "make a scene" business applies to the
haredim who make a fuss. More than it applies to a woman who wants to
sit and be left alone.
SBA> And while I certainly don't wish to be mekatreg on Jewish
SBA> women opposing the separate busses, Japanese women have long
SBA> ago complained about being squashed up against men on trains.
SBA> Nowadays on certain main lines have their 'ladies only'
SBA> carriages.
SBA> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Ladies_Only_Train.jpg
SBA> Just imagine the outcry here if Egged tried THAT?
I think you're missing the whole point. In Japan, the women wanted a
space free of sexual manhandling. In Israel, the haredi men want to
pretend that women aren't in the public sphere. You cannot ignore the
cultural reality of misogyny in both cases.
--Leah S. R. Gordon
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From: Stu Pilichowski <cshmuel@...>
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 11:53:19 +0000
Subject: Re: Heter for Men and Women to be Jammed Together
I had dinner last night at Center One in Jerusalem. I think I would be
correct in describing those that frequent the Center as more yeshivash /
chareidi than "modern."
Next door is a hotel that is used for housing Birthright groups. The
Birthright group was in attendance last night at Center One. Some were
dressed far from what one would describe as "modest." (AAMOF, some very
religious women were also dressed far from "modest." Very tight fitting
tops w/ long sleeves and very long skirts with a very close fitting
cut. This problem for another discussion.)
How long till "some Rebbe" outlaws going to Center One the way it's
ossur to visit a mixed beach during the summer months?
How long till business drops off and Center One management begins a
"dress code" and offers cloaks and wraps for those they deem immodest as
is done in some super markets?
Stuart Pilichowski
Mevaseret Zion, Israel
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From: Joel Rich <JRich@...>
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 08:14:15 -0500
Subject: Segregated Buses
> I confess, leaving aside all of the other issues, I just do not
> understand this l'metzius. If a man gets on the front, pays the driver,
> and then turns down the isle to look for a seat - unless he walks down
> the isle backwards, it seems to me that he will get a great view of the
> women at the back of the bus, all of whom are facing forwards and
> towards him.
Which iiuc was the reason the traditional shul had the doors in the
back/west so one would be "forced" to walk in facing the Aron in the
East as the center of attention/respect.
KT
Joel Rich
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From: SBA <sba@...>
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 16:33:03 +1100
Subject: Segregated Buses -- A Question
From: Orrin Tilevitz
> Around 25 years ago a broadside appeared in New York City banning
> God-fearing Jews from using mass transit because of tzniyus issues.
I think it was more than 25 years ago. IIRC the major force behind this
campaign was a great tzaddik Reb Cheskel Mertz zt'l, who was hardly
known outside his area of Williamsburg.
And indeed he organised buses directly from WB to 47th ST where many
WBians work as well as similar buses from other Jewish sections.
> Mayoral aides were upset, among other reasons because the city doesn't
> need more cars on the street, and set out to defuse the issue.
That I have never heard of, and as I mentioned, buses were arranged.
(Besides, not too many of those chassidim had cars in those days.)
> Today charedim use mass transit.They always did,when there was no
> choice.
When I was living in Boro Park in the early 60s, I often travelled to
WB. Always by subway - changing once or twice. These days, nobody uses
that travel method. The BP-WB bus service is faster and far more
convenient.
SBA
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From: Russell J Hendel <rjhendel@...>
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 22:51:38 -0500
Subject: What is a "Right"
Leah in a recent posting states
>All of these posts have one thing in common - the bizarre (to my mind)
>assumption that some Chareidi man has a "right" to do anything at all
>about my personal body, clothing, transportation, or generally
>acceptable public/legal behavior.
Leah is exactly correct....I **am** assuming that ANY man has certain
"rights" regarding Leah's personal body. Let me explain this very
carefully.
If I ride in a bus and someone fully undresses I have the right to place
a scarf or blanket on her. I respectfully submit to all the learned
lawyers on Mail Jewish that I have NOT committed either an assault or
battery...I have not physically harmed her and I have not degraded
her. On the contrary she has degraded me.
Some lawyers spoke to me over the weekend and pointed out that American
and Jewish law differ in their view on torts. So let me be very
explicit: Rambam, Laws of Torts, Chapter 3 **explicitly** says that the
tort of "embarassment" does not apply to naked people. For example if I
spit on a naked person in a bathhouse I owe him no money. a) I have not
physically harmed him and b) I have not embarassed him since BY JEWISH
LAW DEFINITION the legal category of embarassment does not apply to
naked people.
Let me go a step further to answer Leah's question about the
"Him-MyBody" problem. I explicitly cited a law in Rambam, Neighbors
Chapters 10 or 11 That if my neighbor plants trees and after 10 years
the branches come on my property then **I** have the **right** to cut
off those branches on my property. Jewish law considers this almost the
same as my neighbor shooting arrows on his property and landing on
mine...I **do** have rights to remove HIS arrows. And the analogy: A
women undressing is shooting her nudity arrows at me and I for one (like
other men) resent it.
So Leah can NOT resolve and end this issue by saying HIM-ME or by saying
my PROTECTING myself from HER BODY is an act of degradation...It is in
fact an act of defense.
Now after Leah recovers from what I just said she will write back and
state...."OK You can place scarfs on women who undress...but that doesnt
give a charedi man a right to cover my legs or neckline.
Now I will repeat what I said last time: To the charedi person an
uncovered thigh or neckline is like full nudity. If this happened in his
own neighborhood with his own women he would have a right to cover them
(But not to assult them with kicking and spitting). I therefore said
that this is a double-jurisdiction issue where two legal sovereignties
are in conflict.
I dont think the Charedi are right but I also dont think they are
malicious evil idiots. I think they have some legitimate legal concerns
which no one is listening to. I also dont think that covering women with
scarfs would be considered degradation under Jewish law. However I am
willing to compromise. The Charedi man can walk up to any woman whose
attire is unsatisfactory to him and "offer" her a gift of a "modesty
scarf". This is permissable in both Jewish and non-Jewish law (The woman
has the right to refuse).Personally I think offering modesty scarfs
would be a refreshing alternative to Lubavitch offering tefilin to
everyone.
I for one would like to continue this conversation. As I have shown
above many lawyers have erred in their classifications. I think there
are alot of interesting legal principles here.
Russell Jay Hendel; Ph.d.; http://www.Rashiyomi.com/
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From: Leah S. Gordon <leah@...>
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 04:05:03 -0800
Subject: Which Seats are Best (buses)
>Several posters have assumed that the rear seats of a bus are less
>desirable than the front seats. I wonder whether they travel by bus.
>Given a free choice (which isn't often available) I much prefer the rear
>seats, where I am much less likely to be disturbed by passengers
>walking//pushing past, than the front seats, where there is continual
>traffic.
>
>Perets Mett
Great, then we can share a mehadrin bus. You can have the back. I find
that the back-end seats are usually smellier and their location leads to
more carsickness. Plus, I like the security (for personal safety and
directions) of being near the driver.
But really, the point is that concerns like crowding, carsickness,
security, and purely irrational preference - are the reasons people
*should* choose their seats. Not some wacky idea of the chumra of the
month, externally imposed.
--Leah S. R. Gordon
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End of Volume 53 Issue 77
