Volume 53 Number 81
Produced: Mon Jan 15 6:28:22 EST 2007
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Back of the Bus (2)
[Ari Trachtenberg, Orrin Tilevitz]
Ban on Higher Education for Charedi Women
[Richard Fiedler]
Bigotry and Halacha (2)
[Shoshana L. Boublil, Batya Medad]
Buses
[Sarah Beck]
First Class Brawls over Second-Class Seats
[Meir Shinnar]
Yefas To'ar
[Chana Luntz]
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From: Ari Trachtenberg <trachten@...>
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 09:13:41 -0500
Subject: Re: Back of the Bus
Orrin Tilevitz wrote on 01/11/2007 11:48 PM:
> In other words, what in the halacha gives men (or their rabbis) the
> right to impose that conclusion on Jews who are not willing to accept
> it, to attempt to coerce those Jews (even verbally) to abide by it,
> particularly Jews who are not in their communities?
We're mixing two issues: public vs. private actions and sex-segregated
buses.
In a public setting, public [secular] law takes precedence, meaning that
charedim who do not like the seating arrangement should avoid using such
transportation (much as they avoid using the internet, etc.).
In a private setting, I submit that no one has made an argument that
sex-segregated buses are [halachically] forbidden. Certainly, I could
see certain segregation being deemed halahically forbidden (e.g. forcing
respected rabbis or old people to sit on the floor of a bus while others
sit in seats).
Absent some traditionally supported moral prohibition, however, I don't
understand why people are objecting to privately sex-segregated buses.
Best,
Ari Trachtenberg, Boston University
http://people.bu.edu/trachten mailto:<trachten@...>
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From: Orrin Tilevitz <tilevitzo@...>
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 11:55:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Back of the Bus
> Absent some traditionally supported moral prohibition, however, I
> don't understand why people are objecting to privately sex-segregated
> buses.
I personally find the idea offensive, but I am conditioned to believe
that people can do what they want in private. But if we're talking about
Israel, there are no (or few) sex-segregated buses; Mehadrin buses are
public.
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From: Richard Fiedler <richardfiedler@...>
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 06:43:04 +0200
Subject: Re: Ban on Higher Education for Charedi Women
> From: <ERSherer@...>
> (I'm thinking along the lines of the recent ban on higher
> education for charedi women).
>
> Who imposed that?
[Most of the quoted text below removed, you can read it at:
http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/newscontent.php3?artid=13505
Original source for Arutz 7 story may be:
http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/newscontent.php3?artid=13505
Does anyone have a link to the actual policy released?
Mod.]
From Arutz 7
New Rabbinical Restrictions Against Hareidi Women's "Careerism"
Saturday, January 6, 2007 / 16 Tevet 5767
Rabbis' new restrictions on hareidi-religious women pursuing academic
degrees will impair the ability of teachers to earn a living and support
their families. Regulations by Israel's Ministry of Education requiring
a significant portion of the instructors who teach would-be educators to
have a master's degree or doctorate have set off a chain of events
likely to lead to growing poverty in the hareidi-religious sector.
Since there are a limited number of eligible hareidi professors with
second or third degrees, hareidi education students have been exposed to
a wide variety of teachers - leading hareidi rabbis to take action
against what they perceive as unacceptable foreign influences. Thus the
Rabbinical Committee on Education, the official body that sets
educational policy for most of the hareidi community's institutions, has
issued new guidelines cancelling all academic programs resulting in a
bachelor's degree. As well, a significant number of courses will be
downgraded and a large number of lecturers will be fired.
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From: Shoshana L. Boublil <toramada@...>
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 12:02:14 +0200
Subject: Re: Bigotry and Halacha
> From: Meir Shinnar <chidekel@...>
>> From: SBA <sba@...>
>>I think that this is indeed your problem. What our rabbonim call
>>halacha - you call bigotry.
>
> So far, no one has cited a single, main stream posek of stature
> who has said that segregated buses are required
Actually, so far psika has been produced showing the opposite -- that
there is NO requiment for separate buses.
I would like to add to the collection by noting that I recall a question
on sitting with your husband on the bench in a bus when you are Niddah.
The issue arose b/c there were benches on the bus and not separate seats
as there are today.
I recall that back then, many of my friends used to place their handbag
between them and their date on buses, but nobody had a problem with
mixed buses.
> Correct. I used a wrong description. But as I wrote in another post
> it could come under "ikka darka achrina" - if men have the opportunity
> not to be exposed that closely to inappropriately dressed women.
> (Anyone who has been in Israel - just like anywhere else in summer,
> should understand why charedi men prefer separation of the sexes on
> busses.)
This is truly a strange matter to raise.
The only place you will find a segragated bus, is in Chareidi
neighborhoods, where 99.99% of those on the bus are wearing Tzniusdik
clothing.
So this claim is truly nonsense and irrelevant. It also makes it clear
that no truly halachic thought has gone into this idea of segregated
buses, but rather somene claimed it was "better" -- and others, probably
for fear of not being considered frum enough, didn't shoot down the idea
when it started.
Too many "halachot" or "chumrot" have been enacted over the past decade
with insufficient halachic bases. Chavot Ya'ir notes that excessive
chumrot actually leads to the opposite of frumkeit. Perhaps it's time
that people realized that "Bal Tosif" is a Torah Law that deserves at
least as much attention as the "chumra of the week" club.
Shoshana L. Boublil
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From: Batya Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 06:49:54 +0200
Subject: Re: Bigotry and Halacha
Remember that these innovations are for people in communities
where the sexes rarely mix, where they do not go to movies or
watch TV and get influenced by the loose morals and smut promoted
there. They are people who learn from a young age about the
importance of shemiras einayim, concepts which many in the
observant non-Charedi world have hardly heard of and of course
then badly misunderstand the whole concept of Mehadrin busses.
Seems to me, that all this separation just makes it so that the
slightest glimpse of even the most covered up woman just makes them
think of sex, which is the opposite of what they're supposed to be
doing. L'havdil, it's like all those people eating their 0% milk fat
foods (you can't imagine how disgusting it tastes, all I wanted in NY
was my usual 3% yogurt) and their cholestoral just keeps going on up.
That's because if you undereat what your body needs in cholesterol, your
body will over-produce it!
Batya
http://shilohmusings.blogspot.com/
http://me-ander.blogspot.com/
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From: Sarah Beck <beckse@...>
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 15:27:37 -0500
Subject: Buses
Orrin Tilevitz writes:
> Ari Trachtenberg asserts that segregating people by sex is a halachic
> issue, and that the right Sarah Beck asserts not to be segregated is
> non-halachic. Sarah concedes the point. I wonder if she did so too
> quickly."
I don't mean to concede the point. There may well be a halachic "right
not to be segregated" in public. I don't know. But even IF there is no
such right in halacha, there certainly is in U.S. law. No, all countries
are not the U.S., and Israel certainly isn't, but I think that this
right is worth fighting for in all secular democracies.
Ari Trachtenberg further writes:
> In a private setting, I submit that no one has made an argument that
> sex-segregated buses are [halachically] forbidden. [...] I don't
> understand why people are objecting to privately sex-segregated buses.
>From my purely lay perspective, privately [owned and operated]
sex-segregated buses sound like a good compromise, as I mentioned in my
last post. However, one must make sure that the private buses do not
prevent public ("mixed") buses from serving a given area. I have not the
slightest idea about the halacha or secular law on private buses. (Any
Israeli attorneys out there?)
That said, I bet it's possible to find a halachic defense for private
buses that don't carry people with brown skin.
Kol tuv from the M5,
Sarah Beck
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From: Meir Shinnar <chidekel@...>
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 00:56:47 -0500
Subject: Re: First Class Brawls over Second-Class Seats
RSBA
> There are cases in halacha (and I am not saying that bus travel is
> exactly the same matter) where Chazal say regarding a man walking past
> women doing their washing on the river - when they could have gone an
> alternative way, ["ikka darka achrina"], then he is considered a rasha.
>
> Yes I realise that in that case the onus is indeed on the man to detour
> - not the women. But it shows us that that where there is an opportunity
> not to get up too close - one should.
>
> Separating in busses is obviously not a halacha (otherwise unmixed ones
> and even airplanes would be banned). But it is obviously preferable.
The case in point was for women washing in the river - where there was a
chashash of real ervah. The case in the bus was of a modestly dressed
woman. Can you find a single classical source that would suggest
avoiding seeing modestly dressed women (I am not talking about staring -
I am talking about avoiding the possibility of seeing) is something
desirable?
Furthermore, even in the case of real ervah (and it has been suggested
that the general Israeli population does present that - I think a matter
of some debate, but for the sake of argument) - the man is the one who
was supposed to avoid (a la RSZ Auerbach...)
> Remember that these innovations are for people in communities where the
> sexes rarely mix, where they do not go to movies or watch TV and get
> influenced by the loose morals and smut promoted there. They are people
> who learn from a young age about the importance of shemiras einayim,
> concepts which many in the observant non-Charedi world have hardly heard
> of and of course then badly misunderstand the whole concept of Mehadrin
> busses.
As there is no basis which has been shown for these innovations, perhaps
it is these innovations in the community that are the underlying
problem? They are creating people who are completely unable to interact
with the outside world - even with modestly dressed women...
> Would I be correct in presuming that many of those here who are upset
> about the busses, are also not too happy about the daily bracha 'shelo
> asani isha'?? Sounds like some halachik or rabbinic bigotry too. No?
> And I suppose unmixed weddings and even the mechitzeh in Shul may bother
> some here.
No one is suggesting that halacha is egalitarian, and there are
situations that do require separation. The question is the lesson
learned from that.
However, the actions and presence of the mehadrin buses make the
halachically required separation more difficult to defend. In some way,
the leftist critiques of mechitza and the proponents of mehadrin buses
fundamentally agree that halacha is sexist and degrading to women - the
leftists therefore criticize halacha, and the mehadrin try to extend
these approach to all domains. Those of us who try to defend classic
halacha are in the middle.....
Meir Shinnar
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From: Chana Luntz <chana@...>
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 15:36:18 -0000
Subject: Re: Yefas To'ar
Ari Trachtenberg <trachten@...> writes:
>> Bottom line a "gentile slave" or "eved Ca'anani" does indeed have to
>> convert. And the master has 12 months to pursuade him to do so
>> before being required to sell him on.
>
> His value would be severely reduced if the master legally required to
> sell him!
I am not sure that is the case in a situation where there is an active
non Jewish slave market (which is mostly likely where the master would
have bought him in the first place) - all he is required to do is return
the slave to the slave market and get the going rate, so there should
not really be a significant loss of value. If anything the loss of
value comes with the conversion, because after that, while the master
can sell him to another Jew, he cannot sell him back to the non Jews
(because the eved ca'nani is now chayav in mitzvos to the same extent as
a woman, and since he would not be able to perform those mitzvos if he
was the slave of a non Jew, he can't be sold to one).
> Interestingly, this also seems to turn around the master-slave
> relationship
Yes. That would seem to be true (note for example once converted, there
are situations where the slave can still dictate - eg if he wants to go
live in Eretz Yisroel and the master does not).
>... much like the contract negotiation period before a hire. However,
>a Jewish slave would be at a significant bargaining disadvantage in
>this case, no?
I am not sure I understand this question - as mentioned, you cannot have
a Jewish slave (eved ivri) outside of Yovel according to the Shulchan
Aruch. A slave that had already converted (ie an eved ca'nani) by
another master would seem to have particular value because the new
master knows he can keep him indefinitely, but the value of on-sale
would be, as mentioned above, reduced because of the more limited market
in which he could be sold.
Regards
Chana
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End of Volume 53 Issue 81
