Volume 57 Number 15
Produced: Wed, 02 Sep 2009 07:29:13 EDT
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
A Rule
[Bernard Raab]
eggs shelainu (3)
[Bill Gewirtz Martin Stern Gershon Dubin]
Line jumping at the kotel and anywhere else
[Martin Stern]
Minhag Eretz Yisrael
[David Ziants]
not saying Tachanun (3)
[Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz Martin Stern Menashe Elyashiv]
Nusachot (3)
[Rabbi Meir Wise Ken Bloom Abraham Lebowitz]
Taslich when there are no rivers or streams (3)
[David Ziants Martin Stern Bernard Raab]
yefat toar
[Susan Kane]
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From: Bernard Raab <beraab@...>
Date: Tue, Sep 1,2009 at 06:01 PM
Subject: A Rule
Martin Stern wrote:
> It is precisely this sort of uncouth behaviour that puts many of us off from
> living in Israel. I am disappointed that Yisrael seems to accept it as
> "normal".
I am reminded of the time my wife and I were visiting London, and waited in a
line (sorry--queue) to enter a cinema for some 20 minutes. When the line started
moving, a group of youngsters jumped in front of us. My wife, never one to stand
idly by in the face of wrongful behavior, admonished them loudly, and shamed
them into moving to the back of the line. Of course we have seen similar
behavior in the States. The thing about Israel is that you can see that sort of
behavior almost anywhere; in the makolet [supermarket --MOD], at the pizza shop,
etc. where the gain to be had is minimal. I believe it stems from a pervasive
attitude that if you don't assert yourself you will be viewed (at least by
yourself) as a "sucker", i.e., someone who gets taken advantage of. For myself,
I view this as a cultural artifact, like the tendency to argue vehemently over
the most trivial point, or the general tendency to ignore authority of any kind.
As a Jew, I understand these artifacts and accept them as the results of
centuries of a particular history, even as we may decry their worst aspects.
Bernie R.
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From: Bill Gewirtz <wgewirtz@...>
Date: Tue, Sep 1,2009 at 07:01 AM
Subject: eggs shelainu
> The insert contained in a Masbia meal said "our unique manufacturing
> process eliminates the halachic question of 'overnight' eggs". (The
> breakfast meal contained an omelette.)
Niddah 17. I was amused to see that insert on a continental flight. gemara
refers to raw, shelled eggs I believe. Halakha not mentioned in Tur and SA.
Gra was machmir and RMF says it is NOT the halakha but preferable. HOWEVER,
cooked eggs like in an omlette, particularly in an age of refrigeration, is
entirely an over the top chumrah!! Instead, they shmear egg on some bread to
make the egg mevutal [canceled -MOD.] to the bread - the result is both
tasteless and halakhically entirely baseless IMHO.
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From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Tue, Sep 1,2009 at 07:01 AM
Subject: eggs shelainu
On Mon, Aug 31,2009, Art Werschulz <agw@...> wrote:
> The insert contained in a Masbia meal said "our unique manufacturing
> process eliminates the halachic question of 'overnight' eggs". (The
> breakfast meal contained an omelette.)
Some people are careful not to eat shelled eggs, and also peeled garlic and
onions, that have been left overnight mishum (no pun intended) sakkanah
[because of danger]. This danger apparently does not apply if these
foodstuffs are mixed with something else e.g. oil or, in the case of garlic
and onions, some skin or root is left on them. Therefore, once the omelette
is made there is no problem.
Not everyone follows this custom and those who do not have a family
tradition to do so are advised by many poskim not to take it on - shomer
peta'im Hashem [HKBH guards the simple].
Martin Stern
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From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Tue, Sep 1,2009 at 10:01 AM
Subject: eggs shelainu
Art Werschulz wrote:
> The insert contained in a Masbia meal said "our unique manufacturing process
> eliminates the halachic question of 'overnight' eggs". (The breakfast meal
> contained an omelette.)
>
> What's the issue here? Thanks.
A peeled egg that was left overnight (and an onion whose root was cut, i.e.
chopped onion) has a "ruach ra'ah" [literally "evil spirit" --MOD].
Gershon
<gershon.dubin@...>
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From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Tue, Sep 1,2009 at 07:01 AM
Subject: Line jumping at the kotel and anywhere else
On Wed, Aug 26,2009, jeanette friedman <FriedmanJ@...> wrote:
> Can I send someone else to shul for me on Yom Kippur? After all, I really
> don't want to stand through a 2-hour amida amid the stink of smelling salts
> when I am fasting and have a headache.
In my previous answer I missed this point in Jeanette's posting.
Unless she is so pious as to take two hours to say any of the amidas in her
quiet shemoneh esrei, there is no problem for her to sit down during
chazarat hashats, only standing to say kedushah.
Despite many people's mistaken opinion, there is NO need to stand when the
Aron Hakodesh is open, only when the Sifrei Torah are taken out and moved
about the shul. Once they are put on the bimah one can sit. Whether even
this is required for those in the ezrat nashim is disputable since it might
be construed to be a separate room.
On Yom Kippur, it can be assumed that everyone is at least slightly unwell
so Jeanette need have no qualms in this respect even if someone else is
still davenning their quiet shemoneh esrei within 4 amot (approximately 6
feet) of her.
Martin Stern
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From: David Ziants <dziants@...>
Date: Mon, Aug 24,2009 at 06:01 PM
Subject: Minhag Eretz Yisrael
Thank you for your replies.
With respect to Nusach Ashkenaz [style of prayer service --MOD]
in Israel, as you no doubt know, all
Nusach Ashkenaz communities use (or should use) according to the
minhagei haGr"a [customs of the Vilna Gaon --MOD] . This includes communities
such as Mekor Chayim in Petach Tikva and Musar Avicha in Ma'aleh Adumim. With
respect to viddui [confession --MOD], this is only said on Mondays and Thursdays
(and when it was not already said at selichot if this is a day of selichot).
For example, they would only consider saying the special psalm on Yom
Tov or Rosh Chodesh, etc, according to the established precedence. Also
they duchan [recite the Cohanic blessing] every day and would never say the
extra "late comer" b'racha after k. shma of arvit. The only communities, afaik,
that says this extra b'racha in Israel, are some Taimany [Yemenite] communities.
I mention this because it has been told to me that there is a group of
people who are trying to introduce the chu"l [outside of Israel] version
of Nusach Ashkenaz in certain new communities in Israel and this is now
being endorsed by some chareidi Rabbanim. Do you know anything about this?
In my own neighbourhood there are a few individuals who do not say
"pitum hakoteret" at the end of shacharit, but this is not considered
normative.
David Ziants
Ma'aleh Adumim, Israel
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From: Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz <sabbahillel@...>
Date: Tue, Sep 1,2009 at 07:01 AM
Subject: not saying Tachanun
> From: Irwin Weiss <irwin@...>
> Rather, he said, the most observed day on the calendar is Pesach Sheni. Why?
> Because to observe it, all you have to do is to OMIT Tachanun. Every Jew on
> that day, Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, Haredi, Chassidic, totally
> secular......Everyone OMITS Tachanun on that day. It is universally observed.
This reminds me of one of the minhagim of yom haatzmaut. There are
those who follow the "Bengurion minhag". THey don't say tachanun but
also don't say Hallel (as part of the minyon).
--
Sabba - ' " - Hillel
Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz | Said the fox to the fish, "Join me ashore"
<SabbaHillel@...> | The fish are the Jews, Torah is our water
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7637/544/640/SabbaHillel.jpg
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Tue, Sep 1,2009 at 07:01 AM
Subject: not saying Tachanun
On Mon, Aug 31,2009, Irwin Weiss <irwin@...> wrote:
> Rather, he said, the most observed day on the calendar is Pesach Sheni. Why?
> Because to observe it, all you have to do is to OMIT Tachanun. Every Jew on
> that day, Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, Haredi, Chassidic, totally
> secular......Everyone OMITS Tachanun on that day. It is universally observed.
I hate to disappoint Irwin but the Shulchan Aruch does not mention Pesach
Sheni as a day on which tachanun is omitted and the minhag of those who hail
from Ashkenaz (Germany and surrounding lands) is to say it on that day.
Martin Stern
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Menashe Elyashiv <Menashe.Elyashiv@...>
Date: Tue, Sep 1,2009 at 07:01 AM
Subject: not saying Tachanun
Irwin E. Weiss stated:
> Rather, he said, the most observed day on the calendar is Pesach Sheni.
> Why?
> Because to observe it, all you have to do is to OMIT Tachanun. Every Jew
> on
> that day, Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, Haredi, Chassidic, totally
> secular......Everyone OMITS Tachanun on that day. It is universally
> observed.
Not everybody. The old Ashkenaz custom was to say tahanun on Pesah sheni,
because without the Temple, this day has no meaning. However, the Hasidim
took on the Sepharadi custom not to say,and so did the GRA talmidim that
came here 200 years ago. But the Hazon Ish did not follow them, and in his
prayer place tahanun was said. The Hazonishnikim say tahanun
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Ken Bloom <kbloom@...>
Date: Tue, Aug 25,2009 at 05:01 PM
Subject: Nusachot
My understanding of the Nusach of the Ari Z"L is that because the Ari
Z"L lived in Tsefat, most versions of Nusach Edot HaMizrach reflect the
way the Ari Z"L actually davened, and the kavanot of the Ari Z"L to a
greater degree than other nuschaot do. Though there's certainly some
variation today, it appears that much of that is traceable to other
rabbis who were experts in the Ari Z"L's kabbalah, and made their own
contributions to scholarship in that area, for example the Ben Ish Chai,
and the Gaon HIDA.
Nusach Sephard (used by chassidim) is the result of various attempts by
Chassidic rebbes to create nuschaot compatible with the Ari Z"L's
kabbalah. I've heard two explanations advanced for why they came up with
such different nuschaot. One reason suggests that they lacked access to
the resources that the Sepharadim had access to that would tell them
exactly the Nusach of the Ari Z"L. The other reason suggests that their
goal was to separate out specifically Sepharadi influences on the nusach
from the Ari Z"L's influence on the nusach and adapt only the Ari Z"L's
influence in a way that otherwise preserved the Ashkenazi nature of
their tefillah. (The introduction to Chabad's siddur suggests the latter
approach.) Either way, the result is a number of nuschaot used by
different Chassidic sects. For example, ArtScroll's nusach Sephard has
differences from Chabad's Nusach Ari, and both have differences from the
nusach Maharitz of the Dushinksy chassidic dynasty.
It's common in Sepharadi circles and some other circles for the gedolim
of those communities to determine the wording of the tefillah [prayer --MOD],
and for siddurim to be published with their haskamot [approvals --MOD], or based
on their writings. For example, there are siddurim that reflect the writings of
the Hida (though I've been told that some are not all that close to what the
Hida davened), the Ben Ish Chai (you can see the Ben Ish Chai's
determiniations of how the tefillah should be said in Sefer Ben Ish
Chai, Sefer Od Yosef Chai, and in Leshon Chachamim, and see how they are
reflected in Siddur Od Yosef Chai), and R' Ovadia Yosef (See Yalkut
Yosef and Halacha Berura for his decisions on how certain phrases should
be said, as reported by his sons, and how they are reflected in Siddur
Yechave Da'at).
The chassidic nuschaot reflect this kind of design as well. Chabad's
siddur Tehillat Hashem was written by R' Shneur Zalman of Liadi, the
first Chabad rebbe, and since that time, it seems that the only room for
innovation has been in providing a good English translation, and
updating the clarity of the print for modern printing technologies.
I don't think the most common American Ashkenazi siddurim are written
with such influence by gedolim. The common siddurim tend to take an approach
based more on following other siddurim, paying less attention to the poskim.
To be sure, both Ashkenazi and Sepharadi nusachot have both types of
siddurim.
(And I'm not here to take as stand on the plural of the word "nusach". I
had to pick something and may very well have gotten it wrong.)
--Ken
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Abraham Lebowitz <aileb@...>
Date: Tue, Aug 25,2009 at 04:01 PM
Subject: Nusachot
I find it ironic that the two major nusachim are named for Sefarad/Spain,
responsible for the inquisition and great expulsion in 1492 and
Ashkenaz/Germany responsible for the Shoah in our days.
In another vein: I believe that the word is nuschah, plural nuschaot, and
that nusach is the construct form as in nusach achid.
Abraham I. Lebowitz
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Rabbi Meir Wise <Meirhwise@...>
Date: Tue, Aug 25,2009 at 04:01 PM
Subject: Nusachot
Contrary to popular belief the Gr"a did not create a nusach [prayer style
--MOD]. In fact he was not a mechadesh [renewer --MOD] at all. He tried, on the
basis of ancient manuscripts to establish the correct ancient nusach.
Many if his conclusions were not accepted even in Vilna nor according
to the testimony of reb chayyim mivolozhin did he want them to be even
when his logic and research opposed the current minhag.
This is unlike the chassidim who abandoned nusach ashkenaz for nusach
"sfard". (see the igrot Moshe who states that all who are descended from
Ashkenazim from Germany Poland Russia Lithuania should daven nusach
ashkenaz!)
Many of your readers might not know that the same thing happened in
Yemen in the 19th century. The original nusach of Yemen is called "baladi"
meaning local. This is close to the nusach of rabbenu Saadia gaon and the
rambam which is basically Talmudic.
Shlichim came from eretz yisrael with printed siddurim which were
nusach Ari/sfard. there was no printing in Yemen - siddurim and all
seforim were hand copied. The wealthy and some rabbis purchased these
siddurim in the belief that they were more correct and holy as they
came from Israel. Thus many adopted nusach "shami" meaning "there" ie
Hebron where the printing press was.
Many who had changed over changed back realizing their mistake but a
minority still daven shami. Since 1948 as nusach sfard/Ari seems to dominate in
israel nusach shami which should never have happened won't die!
Whilst admiring Rav Goren, nusach achid was doomed to failure, it
could not satify anyone. ( eg does one include or leave out kol
nidrei ?!)
Please feel free to contact me offline
for more info.
kol tuv
Rabbi Meir Wise, London
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From: David Ziants <dziants@...>
Date: Tue, Sep 1,2009 at 07:01 AM
Subject: Taslich when there are no rivers or streams
>
> ... Snipped ...
> I strongly object to this practice of finishing in the late afternoon. The
> only requirement mentioned in the sources is to finish after midday.
If one makes kiddush after (halachic) midday, then is it not kind of
turning the day into a fast day which is not allowed on Yom Tov?
As far as I remember, the shuls where I live (in the most part), try and
make it their business to finish to give people enough time to come home
to make kiddush before midday. In addition, advice has been given that
even for people who do not normally drink water before davening in the
morning, they should do so on Rosh HaShanna morning if there is a risk
of not making it home in time. (For example, the wife has to hear the
shofar straight afterwards at the extra blowing.)
David Ziants
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Tue, Sep 1,2009 at 07:01 AM
Subject: Taslich when there are no rivers or streams
On Tuesday, September 1, 2009, David Ziants <dziants@...> wrote:
> If one makes kiddush after (halachic) midday, then is it not kind of
> turning the day into a fast day which is not allowed on Yom Tov?
Strictly speaking one may fast during the day on Rosh Hashanah (unlike the
Regalim) though we generally do not follow that opinion. This is the reason
we prolong the davenning until shortly after midday.
> In addition, advice has been given that
> even for people who do not normally drink water before davening in the
> morning, they should do so on Rosh HaShanna morning if there is a risk
> of not making it home in time.
Presumably this is because it can be very hot in Israel, unlike the more
temperate conditions in Northern Europe, and there is a risk of dehydration
which can be pikuach nefesh [dangerous to life].
Martin Stern
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Bernard Raab <beraab@...>
Date: Tue, Sep 1,2009 at 04:01 PM
Subject: Taslich when there are no rivers or streams
> Tashlich is a minhag, and as such, there appears to be great flexibility
> when to say it.
Or, in fact, whether to say it. We have always done so, first, because it was a
great social event where you met your neighbors and friends in a relaxed
environment, and now because we live with a clear view of the great Hudson
River. But we had a very respected rabbi at one time who never said it because
his father stopped him from doing so as a young man. He told us that his father
said that he was only interested in meeting girls, and as a consequence, forbade
him from going to tashlich. This became his lifelong minhag, well after getting
married and having his own family.
Bernie R.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Susan Kane <suekane@...>
Date: Tue, Sep 1,2009 at 09:01 AM
Subject: yefat toar
What if she refuses to convert?
Can you convert someone to Judaism against their will?
And do we imagine that the attractive captive studied and learned everything she
needed to know to become a Jew? And all the while the captor waits patiently?
I know that the whole point of yefat toar is to allow something in order to
discourage it but I still wonder about the above.
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End of Volume 57 Issue 15
