Volume 57 Number 75
Produced: Thu, 07 Jan 2010 20:33:55 EST
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
delayed brit milah timing (7)
[Joel Rich Ira L. Jacobson Martin Stern Batya Medad Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz Gershon Dubin Perets Mett]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Joel Rich <JRich@...>
Date: Thu, Jan 7,2010 at 10:01 AM
Subject: delayed brit milah timing
Leah S. R. Gordon wrote:
> At a family gathering of my side of the family, lots of yentas ;) got to
talking about the timing of a delayed brit milah.
>
> ...And a bonus question: suppose Orthodox relatives want to say a
> mishaberach for the baby. If the baby didn't have a name yet, would there
> be a way to do that? If the baby *does* have a name (his parents did tell
> the name already in fact), is that name used, even before a bris? Is it
> kosher' to do an official mishaberach for a young/pre-named baby?
Of course CYLOR but aiui there is a lot of judgment involved by the posek and
the mohel. For example a question you didn't raise is that some have the
practice of not doing mila on Thursday or Friday once it has been delayed due to
shabbat proximity. If the baby is choleh kol gufo (a state of illness defined
by the posek) 8 days from the "recovery" is the general rule, else asap (but not
meaning that if you're unsure of whether he is ready). The seemingly common
practice of waiting for a Sunday is "an issue".
The practice of naming the baby at the brit stems from Avraham avinu and aiui
there are those who would name before in the case you mentioned.
KT
Joel (a pashut yid not a posek) Rich
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...>
Date: Thu, Jan 7,2010 at 10:01 AM
Subject: delayed brit milah timing
Leah Sarah Reingold Gordon stated:
>Opinion 3: Once the baby is able medically to be circumcised, the
>bris is done immediately without delay.
This is indeed the practice.
>...And a bonus question: suppose Orthodox relatives want to say a
>mishaberach for the baby. If the baby didn't have a name yet, would
>there be a way to do that?
The practice I am familiar with is to say the Mi Sheberakh for Tinoq
(or Tinoqet) ben (or bas) and the mother's name.
~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=
IRA L. JACOBSON
=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~
mailto:<laser@...>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Thu, Jan 7,2010 at 10:01 AM
Subject: delayed brit milah timing
On Wed, Jan 6,2010, Leah S. R. Gordon <leah@...> wrote:
> We were recently blessed in our family to have a set of twins
> (my niece and nephew), born at around 34 weeks gestational age.
Mazal tov! May we all hear only simchas from one another in future!
> Opinion 1: The bris happens on the eighth day after the child is released
> from the NICU, i.e. that release counts as his real "birth".
>
> Opinion 2: Once the bris does not happen on the real eighth day, counting
> days does not matter, and it is scheduled when convenient and when he
> is healthy, "as soon as possible".
>
> Opinion 3: Once the baby is able medically to be circumcised, the bris is
> done immediately without delay.
AFAIK the answer is opinion 3. In fact, unlike a bris on the eighth day
where the whole day is suitable, and there is no "zarizim makdimim
lemitsvah", where it is delayed one does the bris at the earliest time
possible.
> ...And a bonus question: suppose Orthodox relatives want to say
> a mishaberach for the baby. If the baby didn't have a name yet,
> would there be a way to do that?
The normal procedure is to make a mishebeirach for the mother and mention
the baby (namelessly) in it. The text is to be found in most siddurim.
Alternatively one can just refer to him as "hayeled ben ploni" (or if he is
unwell plonit) without a personal name.
> If the baby *does* have a name is that name used even before a bris?
Where the bris will delayed for a very long time (say over a year), one can
give the boy a name in the same manner as for a girl when the father gets an
aliyah. One should discuss the problem with ones rav. If this is done there
is no problem with using that name.
> Is it 'kosher' to do an official mishaberach for a young/pre-named baby?
The procedure is as I wrote above.
Martin Stern
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Batya Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Thu, Jan 7,2010 at 10:01 AM
Subject: delayed brit milah timing
Refuah Shleimah to "tinok ben name of mother"
Delayed brit can't be on Shabbat nor Chag, of course. Some people do
rush to do it the day the doctor first says it's safe, but if that would
stress out the family, then it's customary to give them some time to get
organized.
When my youngest was a tiny baby, after the brit he was hospitalized 6
weeks for a serious infection, and we started in the neonatal ward with
babies who hadn't yet gone home. They had a "support group" session and
said that the baby should be called by a name. The not using the name
isn't a real halacha; it's a minhag. Calling the child by name helps
for bonding. This was in Shaare Tzedek, a frum hospital. I know of a
baby who's already about two and hasn't had the brit because of birth
defects. He walks, talks and is called by a name. The family is
religious.
Having experienced taking care of a newborn in the hospital for over a
month, I know how difficult and traumatic it is, not can be. It really
is hard. Be sensitive to their needs, especially the mother.
Batya
http://shilohmusings.blogspot.com/
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz <sabbahillel@...>
Date: Thu, Jan 7,2010 at 10:01 AM
Subject: delayed brit milah timing
Answering the last question first, the minhag in my shul is "tinok [
baby] ben <mother's name>" in the mishebeirach for the choleh and
"tinok ben <father's name>" for the regular mishebeirach when the
father (or grandfather) is getting an aliyah before the bris.
According to various shiurim that I have attended or listened to (such
as Rabbi Frand and Rabbi Reisman), the child is regarded as "sick"
while in the NICU and is given the bris after "recovery". Many types
of "sickness" require a seven day waiting period in order to ensure
that the child is well (such as a fever). Others (such as bilirubin
numbers) are monitored and the bris performed as soon as the child is
"healthy enough" without delay. This is actually a case where the
doctor *and* the mohel should be consulted. I have seen cases where
the mohel was stricter than the doctor (because he is more experienced
in the matter). I found some references (via google) that might help
such as R. Ovadia in Yabia Omer 5, Yoreh Deah 23, s.v Ela Lichora. I
also found references that discuss jaundice as that is the most common
issue that comes up. I would consider the case of the NICU as being a
case of "sickness" and the question would be is the release from the
NICU considered the same as a baby who has *just* recovered from the
"fever" or is it as if the baby has become fully healthy (i.e.
equivalent to after the seven day wait to ensure recovery).
I found a reference to a conversation that a new father had with Rabbi
Moshe Tendler posted at
http://joshyuter.com/archives/2004/03/a_bris_too_late.php on March 4,
2004. I will quote the relevant section.
---------------------- quote ------------------------------------
Actually, this let to one of the most amusing conversations I had in
R. Tendler's shiur:
Me: We don't know when the bris will be yet. It depends on the
Bilirubin numbers
R. Tendler: What are the Bilirubin numbers?
Me (innocently): Oh, those are the numbers that tell you how
much jaundice the kid has.
It is at this time that I'd like to point out that R. Tendler
has a PhD in biology, teaches bio in the college, and lectures
extensively on medical ethics.
R. Tendler: I know what the *Bilirubin numbers* are, I want to
know what the Bilirubin numbers *are*.
At any rate, the bris was performed as soon as we had the doctor's ok,
and everyone seems to be doing fine 6 years later.
------------------------------ end quote-------------------------.
Someone who was there also stated that Rabbi Tendler joked that some
people think that bilirubin is Chaim Rubin's brother. This was a
reference to the idea held by some that there is a "magic number"
rather than the baby needing to be checked by the doctor and mohel.
I also found a reference at http://koltorah.org/ravj/britmilah1.htm
which quotes Dayan Weisz (Teshuvot Minchat Yitzchak 8:88), Satmar,
cited in Rav J. David Bleich's Contemporary Halachic Problems
2:237-238, Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (cited in Nishmat Avraham
5:84-85), and Rav Eliezer Waldenberg (Teshuvot Tzitz Eliezer 13:81 and
83) discussing the jaundice issue in modern times and giving three
basic approaches.
------------------------------quote-------------------------.
Jaundice - Contemporary Poskim
Modern medicine distinguishes between pathologic jaundice and
physiologic jaundice. Generally speaking, modern medicine views a mild
case of jaundice to be physiologic, i.e. part of the normal course of
development for many babies. Thus, from a modern medical perspective
there is no reason to postpone the Brit of a baby experiencing
physiological jaundice. Accordingly, Halacha and modern medicine seem
to conflict regarding this matter. This is no simple problem to
resolve. On one hand, cannot endanger a child and on the other hand,
we cannot unnecessarily delay a Brit.
Three basic approaches to this dilemma are presented by contemporary Poskim.
------------------------------ end quote-------------------------.
He also brings the discussion from the poskim such as the following
------------------------------ quote ----------------------------------------
Jaundice - Gemara, Rishonim, and Acharonim
The Gemara (Shabbat 134a) states that we should not circumcise a baby
boy who is yellow until the yellowness recedes. The Gemara recounts a
story about a woman who gave birth to three boys each of whom
subsequently died from their Brit Milah. Rabbi Natan advised the woman
to delay the Brit of her fourth son until the yellowness of the baby
recedes. The family heeded the Rabbi's advice and the boy recovered
from the Brit without difficulty.
The Rambam (Hilchot Milah 1:117) and Shulchan Aruch (Yoreh Deah 263:1)
rule in accordance with this Talmudic passage. They both write
(probably based on the Gemara's anecdote) "One should be exceedingly
careful about these matters," and, "Danger to life is always cause to
delay a Brit because the Milah may always be performed later, but we
are incapable of restoring a Jewish soul." They both write that we do
not perform the Brit until the baby's appearance resembles other
healthy baby boys.
The Rambam and Shulchan Aruch, however, differ about a very
significant point. The Rambam writes that we should postpone the Brit
if the baby is "exceptionally yellow" but the Shulchan Aruch omits the
word "exceptionally." The Chochmat Adam (149:4) rules in accordance
with the Rambam. He notes that the Smag and Rabbeinu Yerucham also
write, "exceptionally yellow" in this context, and the Chochmat Adam
is puzzled why the Shulchan Aruch omits the word "exceptionally." The
Aruch Hashulchan (Y.D. 263:3) rules in accordance with the Shulchan
Aruch. He adds "even if the yellowness appears only on one region or
limb on the body, we postpone the Brit until he appears like the other
children." A major ramification of this dispute is whether we should
postpone a Brit if the boy exhibits a mild form of jaundice. This
issue has not been resolved. Some will postpone the Brit in case of
mild jaundice, and others will not.
Another dispute is whether one must wait seven days after the jaundice
has receded before performing the Brit. The Halacha requires that one
wait seven days after a boy recovers from an illness before performing
a Brit (Shabbat 137a and Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 262:2). The Aruch
Hashulchan (ibid) and Maharsham (Daat Torah Y.D. 38) rule that a
seven-day wait is unnecessary for a jaundiced baby and Rav Shlomo
Kluger (Teshuvot Tuv Taam Vedaat Y.D.1:220) and Yad Ketana (Hilchot
Milah 8:18) require the seven-day wait.
------------------------------ end quote-------------------------.
Sabba - ' " - Hillel
Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz | Said the fox to the fish, "Join me ashore"
<SabbaHillel@...> | The fish are the Jews, Torah is our water
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Thu, Jan 7,2010 at 10:01 AM
Subject: delayed brit milah timing
> Opinion 1: The bris happens on the eighth day after the child is released
> from the NICU, i.e. that release counts as his real "birth".
Never heard of this.
> Opinion 2: Once the bris does not happen on the real eighth day, counting
> days does not matter, and it is scheduled when convenient and when he
> is healthy, "as soon as possible".
Not when it's convenient, when the baby is sufficiently healthy and medically
cleared for the bris, just not on Shabbos or Yom Tov (which is deferred only for
a bris on the eighth day).
> ...And a bonus question: suppose Orthodox relatives want to say
> a mishaberach for the baby. If the baby didn't have a name yet,
> would there be a way to do that? If the baby *does* have a name
> (his parents did tell the name already in fact), is that name used,
> even before a bris? Is it 'kosher' to do an official mishaberach for
> a young/pre-named baby?
The usual formulation is tinok (or tinokes) ben (or bas) the mother. Or, maybe,
tinok A ben and tinokes B bas <g>?
Mazal tov. Eilu haketanim gedolim yihyu.
Gershon
<gershon.dubin@...>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Perets Mett <p.mett@...>
Date: Thu, Jan 7,2010 at 10:01 AM
Subject: delayed brit milah timing
When a baby boy is suffering from a serious illness, the bris cannot
be performed until the eighth day counting from the date of recovery;
this could well be from the date of release from NICU. (One of my
grandsons suffered from severe jaundice during his first week of life;
he was given clearance on a Friday morning, and his bris took place
the following Friday morning.) [Shulchon Oruch YD 262:2]
Waiting for a convenient day to perform the bris is not an option.
> ...And a bonus question: suppose Orthodox relatives want to say
> a mishaberach for the baby. If the baby didn't have a name yet,
> would there be a way to do that?
A mi-shebeirach for an unnamed baby can be made referring to "tinok
ben (mother)"
Where it is known that the bris will be delayed for more than a month
a name is sometimes given before the bris.
Perets Mett
----------------------------------------------------------------------
End of Volume 57 Issue 75
