Volume 59 Number 08
Produced: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 12:22:16 EDT
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
"Statement of Principles" regarding homosexuality
[Lisa Liel]
Fixed seats in shul (5)
[Ira L. Jacobson Martin Stern Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz Carl Singer Batya Medad]
Mental illness
[Robert Rubinoff]
Psalm 27
[Martin Stern]
Segregated Train Cars (was even more on Jewish homosociality)
[Carl Singer]
Who is a religious Jew?
[Mark Symons]
who washes the dishes? (3)
[Martin Stern Carl Singer Ira L. Jacobson]
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From: Lisa Liel <lisa@...>
Date: Mon, Aug 30,2010 at 09:01 AM
Subject: "Statement of Principles" regarding homosexuality
Michael Rogovin <mrogovin118@...> wrote (MJ 59#07):
> A recent article in the NY Jewish Week profiles American olim
> [immigrants to Israel] who are creating an English counterpart to a
> Hebrew website of the group Bat Kol, an organization supporting
> orthodox lesbians in Israel.
(Just as a caveat, I am not a member of Bat Kol, I opposed the
Jerusalem Pride Parade vociferously from before the first time it was
held, and I certainly would never bring my daughter to one. But...)
Not *all* Orthodox lesbians. Not monolithically. So you probably
don't want to judge everyone by one small group.
> The article featured a photo of the profiled women marching in the
> gay pride parade in Jerusalem. While providing support and guidance
> to orthodox gays is commendable, public displays of "pride",
> accompanied by others whose agenda is contrary to orthodoxy and
> whose public behavior and dress is an affront to orthodoxy does
> little to garner sympathy or support from me or those of us who
> would be most likely to be supportive. For both gays and straights
> in the frum world, sexuality is a private and not public affair. I
> don't have a straight pride parade, not because I don't have to, but
> because I don't want to. I am not "proud" of being straight, it is
> just part of what I am.
Ditto for me being gay. But the comparison is kind of silly. No one
ever persecuted straight people for the crime of being straight. No
one ever suggested to straight people that they should be ashamed of
who they are. If you had, perhaps you might feel a need to
demonstrate that you will *not* be ashamed of who you are. Pride, in
this case, simply means "not ashamed and not willing to be
ashamed". I'm not "proud" of being gay. But I am not ashamed of it,
either. Nor should I be, and neither should I be told that I ought
to be. So I sympathize with the idea of a pride parade.
That being said, I've never seen a gay pride parade that didn't
include a tremendous amount of inappropriate and sexually suggestive
behavior. I don't see that as something to be proud of at
*all*. But at the same time, I think the people who attacked them
physically, and even the views of a number of people on this list
during this discussion, are things that are shameful in the
extreme. And made worse by the fact that the people who have acted
in such a way apparently don't feel the slightest bit of shame in it.
> But just as I object to public heterosexual behavior, I think the
> same rules should apply to homosexuals, and they should find allies
> among the orthodox, not among the secular gay activists, whose
> agenda is contrary to ours.
I couldn't agree more. I did go to the Tel Aviv pride parade, many
years ago (in the late '90s), carrying a sign that said, "Don't hate
me because I'm a lesbian. Don't hate me because I'm religious." But
it was kind of pointless. On both counts.
> It is true, that symbolically I can publicly "parade" my married
> with children status, but the fact is that orthodoxy is not going to
> accept gay couples as families, whether or not they have children.
> To think otherwise is foolish, as the statement of principles makes
> clear. (I also found the statements by Bat Kol leaders that the
> halachic issues were secondary to be problematic -- halacha must be
> front and center, a primary issue, for any organization that calls
> itself orthodox.)
The halakhic issues are only secondary in the sense that the bias and
antagonistic behavior towards people who are gay -- for *being* gay
-- is completely unjustified by any halakhic standard. It stems from
the same kind of xenophobia that evinces itself as misogyny,
homophobia, and yes, antisemitism. There are certainly halakhic
issues, but they do not justify maltreating the children of same sex
couples. They do not justify the ostracism of frum Jews who happen
to be gay. They do not justify assuming that people who are gay,
even if they are in committed relationships, are committing sins in private.
Lisa
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From: Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...>
Date: Fri, Aug 27,2010 at 04:01 AM
Subject: Fixed seats in shul
David Ziants wrote (MJ 59#06):
> Although many shuls have labelled seats because of this halacha,
> many shuls do not.
Many shuls have assigned seats without affixing labels. But even for
those that do not assign seats, the halakha says the WE must adopt a
fixed seat. The mitzvah is ours and not the shul's.
> Is the fixed seat halacha meant for the individual or the shul?
As I have stated.
> What if you come to shul on time/late and someone is sitting in
> "your seat" (official or not) ?
Interesting question. I know a fellow who came to a shul (he was new
in the neighborhood) and sat down at a vacant seat. Some tens of
minutes later someone came up to him and said that the new fellow was
sitting in his seat and that he should move. As a result, the new
fellow never went back there. On the other hand, I have heard of a
shul that set a rule to the effect that if you come after Barukh
She'amar, you have no right to ask the occupier of your seat to move.
> I know at least one of the the fixed seat shuls (which is officially
> only relevant on shabbat night morning) where I live have a whole
> protocol depending on whether late i.e. after kabbalat shabbat at
> night / yishtabach in morning - or on time. Guests who are on time
> need to wait to be seated. Guest who are late can sit any where.
>
> In my shul, I am happy they do not have this business (at least of
> yet) even though I sometimes find myself not always sitting in
> exactly the same spot.
While I hardly think that this is a capital crime, the halakha as I
understand it is clear.
Perhaps I misunderstand?
~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=
IRA L. JACOBSON
=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~
mailto:<laser@...>
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From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Mon, Aug 30,2010 at 09:01 AM
Subject: Fixed seats in shul
David Ziants <dziants@...> wrote (MJ 59#06):
> Although many shuls have labelled seats because of this halacha, many
> shuls do not.
I think that it is unusual for shuls to have labelled seats.
> Is the fixed seat halacha meant for the individual or the shul?
> What if you come to shul on time/late and someone is sitting in "your
> seat" (official or not) ?
It all depends on the circumstances. If the seats are of the pew type and
one keeps one's tallit and tefillin in the box, one has little choice but to
ask the person to allow one to take them out. If the visitor has any sense
he will then offer to move.
> I know at least one of the the fixed seat shuls (which is officially
> only relevant on shabbat night/morning) where I live have a whole
> protocol depending on whether late i.e. after kabbalat shabbat at night
> / yishtabach in morning - or on time.
> Guests who are on time need to wait to be seated. Guests who are late can sit
> anywhere.
Those members who are present should make a point of greeting the visitor and
ushering him to a seat known to be vacant. It is a disgrace that they
should simply be ignored which would make them feel unwelcome.
When I am in a strange shul, I always make a point of asking where there is
a spare seat. Often the person says "Sit anywhere" to which I usually reply
that I do so on condition that the person who normally uses that place
should move me if he comes.
Martin Stern
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From: Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz <sabbahillel@...>
Date: Mon, Aug 30,2010 at 09:01 AM
Subject: Fixed seats in shul
David Ziants <dziants@...> wrote (MJ 59#06):
> Although many shuls have labelled seats because of this halacha, many
> shuls do not.
>
> Is the fixed seat halacha meant for the individual or the shul?
> What if you come to shul on time/late and someone is sitting in "your
> seat" (official or not)?
Many people in our shul have a "makom kavua", however, if a guest is
sitting in that seat when the person who normally sits there arrives,
we do not disturb him. I have a shtender in front of my seat, so when
I arrive, whoever is sitting there will usually move to the seat next
to it (which is "open"). However, I do not ask, nor do I even hint
that the person should move. A guest would not know when a seat is a
"makom kavua" and will either ask or sit next to his host. When a
person begins davening with us on a regular basis, he will make sure
to learn which seats are "open" and establish a "makom kavua" for
himself that will not take someone else's place.
Sabba - ' " - Hillel
Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz
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From: Carl Singer <carl.singer@...>
Date: Mon, Aug 30,2010 at 09:01 AM
Subject: Fixed seats in shul
David Ziants (MJ 59#06) posts:
> I know at least one of the the fixed seat shuls (which is officially
> only relevant on shabbat night {and} morning) where I live have a whole
> protocol depending on whether late i.e. after kabbalat shabbat at night
> / yishtabach in morning - or on time. Guests who are on time need to
> wait to be seated. Guest who are late can sit any where.
What an awful way to treat a guest. (Awful and perhaps halachically NOT
acceptable.)
Guests who accompany a "regular" member (for example a visiting
parent or in-law) have their host to guide them -- but "unattached" guests
frequently, as a matter of courtesy ask where they might sit, or "is this
seat taken?" -- and a member may
(a) greet them and
(b) courteously guide them to a seat.
In many a shul a guest will find himself receiving multiple meal invitations
and even someone offering to walk them to their destination after davening.
Then again, in some shuls, one will find themselves stared at as an
interloper. I especially like such shuls as they remind me of how lucky
I am to be only a visitor, as opposed to living in that community.
Carl
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From: Batya Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Mon, Aug 30,2010 at 09:01 AM
Subject: Fixed seats in shul
Until a few months ago our shul, especially the Ezrat Nashim was so
small and over-crowded many women wouldn't go, because there was never a
guarantee that they would have a place to sit. Those of us with
set/named seats were the lucky few and it was expected that a guest
would get up if sitting on someone's seat. It's not that we're nasty,
just if you pay for a seat you don't want to be stuck standing.
I've always tried to signal to where it's possible to sit, so guests will
feel comfortable. It does help to have that sort of help.
I'm hyper-sensitive to the "where can I sit" when in another shul. Recently
we were in another town for a family Bar Mitzvah. There were three that
Shabbat and I was among the first women in the Ezrat Nashim, the first
of our family. I saw three tables set up in the front of the balcony.
I sat at one and saved it for the family, saying, "C- Bar Mitzvah" when
a stranger approached. It worked.
B"H, we've expanded the shul, so regular Shabbatot are fine, and I guess
that the holidays will be better than before.
Batya
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From: Robert Rubinoff <rubinoff@...>
Date: Wed, Aug 25,2010 at 10:01 PM
Subject: Mental illness
Tzvi Stein <Tzvi.Stein@...> wrote (MJ 58#83):
> There seems to be credible evidence that lifestyle changes such as getting
> enough sleep, healthy diet and regular exercise are more effective than
> medication for some forms of depression.
>
> However, have you ever heard of a psychiatrist advising a patient to try these
> before going on medication? Have you ever heard of a psychiatrist even asking
> questions about the patient's diet, sleep or exercise habits? Is this
> anything to do with the multi-trillion dollar psychiatric pharmaceutical
> business? Do the pharmaceutical companies and doctors make any money from
> people who get better just by going to bed early and jogging every day?
Yes.
I personally know of a case where someone who had been diagnosed with depression
by a therapist went to a psychiatrist to get medication, and the psychiatrist
decided (after a session talking with the patient) that the person was in fact
not depressed, at least not enough to need medication, and declined to prescribe
medication. The patient then went to another psychiatrist who did some
extensive testing and came to the conclusion that the original problem had been
a transient event and needed only continued emotional support from family
members. (I'm oversimplifying quite a bit here, but the basic point is that no
medication was given, and in fact the original diagnosis was rejected.)
Robert
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From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Mon, Aug 30,2010 at 09:01 AM
Subject: Psalm 27
Sammy Finkelman <sammy.finkelman@...> wrote (MJ 59#07):
> Fay Berger wrote (MJ 58#91):
>
>> The "Shilo Prayer Book" "Shilo Publishing House,Inc." New York has
>> "L'Dovid" after "Shacharis' and "Mincha" from the first day of the
>> month of "Elul" till the day following "Shmini Atzeres."
>
> My Siddur Shilo says Shacharis and Maariv, and says till Shimini
> Atzeres. (page 110 Sixth Edition latest copyright date, 1988). And it
> is Maariv
Obviously Fay has a "Nusach Sfard" version and Sammy a "Nusach Ashkenaz"
one!
Martin Stern
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From: Carl Singer <carl.singer@...>
Date: Wed, Aug 25,2010 at 07:01 AM
Subject: Segregated Train Cars (was even more on Jewish homosociality)
Sam Gamoran (MJ59#04) responds to Prof Reuben Freeman's comment (MJ 58#99) on
gender segregation in public transportation.
> There was an article in today's Yisrael Hayom newspaper .... about the
> troubled Jerusalem light rail system.
> When the rail actually starts operating (not before next April) CityPass,
> the operator/concessionaire, is considering putting "mehadrin" trains on
> the line e.g. every third or fourth train will have a men's-only car (the
> article didn't >say anything about women's-only cars). However they don't
> have the final say in this matter. Rules regarding seating and operating
> conditions are regulated by >the Ministry of Transportation. I suppose
> coalition politics next year will have a role in deciding whether this
> happens. It's also moot till the trains actually start running!
I did a quick internet search on separate gender rail -- interestingly most
links point to "women only" cars -- in order to protect young women from being
ogled (circa 1912) or young women from being groped (current). The focus
initially is on Japanese trains.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women-only_passenger_car
Perhaps this reflects different concerns and sensitivities within different
societies.
Also, during the above search I came across articles noting that this will
likely be another Israeli political football - which should come as no surprise.
All of which brings me to an additional thought:
Have some recent discussions taken on a life of their own, having lost any
new halachic discussion value and simply becoming a forum for lengthy - very
lengthy - polemics that might best be taken off line between between the
antagonists.
Does MJ remain a forum for discussing halachic issues - or has its focus
expanded to "anything Jewish."
Carl
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women-only_passenger_car>
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From: Mark Symons <msymons@...>
Date: Wed, Aug 25,2010 at 09:01 AM
Subject: Who is a religious Jew?
Shmuel Himelstein <himels@...> wrote:
(Vol 59 Number 04 - Aug 25,2010)
> ..."A" is what is commonly called a "religious Jew," who prays three times
> a day, learns Talmud daily,
These would clearly seem to be "good" behaviors, or mitzvot.
> but also - as a minister in the Israeli government - is ruled by the
> courts to have taken kickbacks to award lucrative contracts to friends,
> for which he is sentenced to a prison term...
These would clearly seem to be "bad" behaviors, or aveirot.
> "B" Is not known as a "religious Jew," but when his factory burned down
> continues to pay his employees' salaries out of his own pocket.
This would clearly seem to be a "good" behavior, or mitzva.
> And now the question - given the above scenario, who is a "religious
> Jew"?"
To me this highlights the pointlessness and inappropriateness of the whole
exercise of trying to classify/judge/label someone as a "religious jew" or
not. I think this is the point that R. Adin Steinzaltz was making at
a Seudah Shlishit in Melbourne some years ago when he said that there are 2
types of Jews: those who keep mitzvot and those who keep more mitzvot -
which obviously really means that there is only one type of Jew. We all do
some mizvot and some aveirot. Some examples like those above are clear which
category they fall into, whereas other behaviors may not be so clear how to
classify.
Mark Symons
Melbourne, Oz
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From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Mon, Aug 30,2010 at 09:01 AM
Subject: who washes the dishes?
Leah S.R. Gordon <leah@...> wrote (MJ 59#06):
> WADR to Martin, I never said they were 'lazy'; see above for my whole
> quote. I assumed that they would be enjoying their shabbat in appropriate
> ways. Which ways are just as appropriate for any housewife/husband in a
> domestic environment.
Leah may not have written 'lazy' explicitly but that was the implication of
her comment (MJ 59#01):
>> Hm. So if young, strong, not-otherwise-occupied men would be washing the
>> dishes in some kind of organized rotation, *that* is more of an exertion
>> than the wife in the kitchen washing a family/guests-worth of dishes?
I am sure she would not have made the same remark in other circumstances
which was why I wrote (MJ 59#04):
> Perhaps she would also like to consider substituting "a hospital with 200
> patients" or "old age home with 200 residents" for "a Yeshiva for 200
> bachurim" to understand that David's point was entirely reasonable and it
> was merely his choice of example that allowed her to make her comment.
What she has done is divert a perfectly reasonable discussion on the
difference between the situation in domestic and large scale catering to an
attack on "not-otherwise-occupied *men*" (my emphasis).
Martin Stern
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From: Carl Singer <carl.singer@...>
Date: Mon, Aug 30,2010 at 09:01 AM
Subject: who washes the dishes?
Several previous postings have addressed this.
Since my home has two (automatic) dishwashers -- which we don't use on
Shabbos or Yom Tov and several (human) dishwashers .... I believe a relevant
question is whether the dishes need to be washed on Shabbos.
Will a sink filled with dirty dishes spoil one's Shabbos "atmosphere"
(Many put dirty dishes into the dishwasher on Shabbos -- out of sight, out
of mind)
Are the dishes needed for later use on Shabbos?
Will the dried on food make post-Shabbos washing so arduous as to spoil
one's enjoyment of Shabbos. Some will scrape dishes and rinse them in cold water.
I guess these all fall under a category of things which may be permissible
but aren't necessarily appropriate (or needed) for Shabbos.
Here's an example -- We have a mail slot in our back door -- some time on
Shabbos a loose pile of envelopes appears in the hallway adjacent to this door.
Other than pushing them to one side (for safety reasons, I don't want someone to
slip & fall), I don't bother with them on Shabbos. Were I to, say, pick them
up and put them onto a table (without sorting), I might glance at a letter from
my bank -- this might rouse my curiosity or upset me -- and this might spoil
what I loosely referred to as (my) Shabbos "atmosphere" -- it may be halachically
permissible to pick up the pile of mail and put in onto a table, but need
not be done on Shabbos.
Carl
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From: Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...>
Date: Mon, Aug 30,2010 at 12:01 PM
Subject: who washes the dishes?
Avraham Walfish <rawalfish@...> (MJ 59#05) stated the following:
> Sorry, Martin, I think you have misunderstood Leah's point. The
> question is - given the presence of so many yeshiva bahurim, the
> poskim had an available a solution to the tircha yeteira of the
> staff - namely, to have the yeshiva bahurim do the job. If the
> poskim preferred to find a (problematic) heter for using the
> dishwasher on Shabbat, rather than propose the yeshiva bahurim
> solution, that tells us something about the sociology of rabbinic
> permissiveness vs. stringency.
There is another possibility that may have been done, although it has
not been mentioned. That is, perhaps non-Jews operated the dishwasher.
There is a principle in amira lenokhri that if the work he is to
perform on Shabbat COULD be done in a way that violates no
prohibitions, then there is no problem in his doing it in a manner
that does violate prohibitions.
Could that be in fact what happened? I'm told that it's done in
haredi yeshivot all the time with regard to mopping floors, for example.
~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=
IRA L. JACOBSON
=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~
mailto:<laser@...>
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End of Volume 59 Issue 8
