Volume 59 Number 27
Produced: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 08:34:28 EDT
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
"Statement of Principles" regarding homosexuality
[Avraham Walfish]
Clapping and Dancing on Shabbat
[Jeremy Conway]
Easiest Mitzvah
[Irwin Weiss]
Eldest Brothers Marrying Sisters
[Russell J Hendel]
Eroticism in Prayer language (was Selichot)
[Martin Stern]
Kaddish Question
[Daniel Geretz]
Kaddish yatom when l'david hashem ori is straight after alainu (2)
[Baruch J. Schwartz Carl Singer]
Kinus Teshuva Lecture Today!
["Lectures"]
Latest Kosher Cooking Carnival
[Batya Medad]
Santa Monica, CA?
[Batya Medad]
Selichot (2)
[Josh Backon Martin Stern]
Shofar Blowing at Kotel
[Yisrael Medad]
Throwing bread crumbs to fish on Shabbat/Yom tov (4)
[Ira L. Jacobson]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Avraham Walfish <rawalfish@...>
Date: Tue, Sep 14,2010 at 04:01 AM
Subject: "Statement of Principles" regarding homosexuality
In MJ 59#26 Orrin discussed the differences between his approach and mine
(i.e. the Statement of Principles regarding homosexuality), and, happily, I
think we're approaching the point where the differences between us, including
the points where halakhah may be differently understood are clear.
Orrin wrote (MJ 59#26):
> Certainly, there are areas where Halakha permits a range of practices, and
> the community decides standards... But Halakha"and, it follows, the area
> where the rabbi's decision should be the last word, not merely a factor"is
> not just a list of technical rules. Often, we look to the mara de'asra
> [literally, the LOR] to tell us what we should do, not just what we may or
> may not do. Technically, it would be permissible to have a big TV screen in
> the shul broadcasting during the World Series during Neilah. Do you really
> think this should be a matter of communal standards? Or, take another issue
> we've discussed on MJ, whether women can receive aliyot. As I recall, R.
> Yehuda Henkins teshuva [responsum], intended to be definitive"states that
> while there is nothing technically problematic, he would permit them only
> on limited circumstances, on special occasions. Is he saying that this is
> also a matter of community standards?
In my previous posting I explained my view, that "communal standards" includes
taking into account the "sense of halakhah", which certainly involves the input
of the LOR. But it is up to the LOR to decide when the sense of halakhah should
be binding and when it is a factor, but not necessarily determinative. Different
LOR's may decide differently in different situations, both in terms of how they
understand the sense of halakhah and in terms of how binding that should be.
Just to illustrate - when Rabbi Soloveitchik was asked halakhic questions by
LOR's, he frequently presented the halakhic sources and options as he saw them
and then told the LOR that, insofar as he was the one who knew his
community, he had to decide how to translate the sources into practice.
Unfortunately, today there is far too much willingness on the part of rabbis -
even leading halakhic authorities - to issue blanket rulings for all of Israel,
without leaving the kind or room for different communities that Rabbi
Soloveitchik used to allow.
>> Second, I provided a halachic source stating that one who sins flagrantly
>> may not receive an aliya.
>
>> I think that provides ample authority for the proposition that one who
>> openly engages in forbidden sexual acts may not receive an aliya. Avie
>> evidently disagrees.
The key word here, of course is "flagrant", which depends greatly on
communal dynamics, and - Orrin will not like this - can change based on changing
communal mores. When the halakhah uses terms involving "flagrancy", it is
clearly and intentionally leaving room open for transgressions to be
characterized differently at different times and in different communities. Just
a few sources to illustrate halakhic flexibility here - a transgressor may be
counted in a minyan unless he has been put under a ban (*nidui*) - Shulhan
Arukh, Orach Haim 55:11-12; only one who is a *rasha gamur* [completely wicked
person] transgressing in public is disqualified from zimmun and synagogue
functions (Mishnah Berurah 199:2 and Be'ur Halakhah ad. loc.); one who
transgresses repeatedly *lete'avon* [weakness in succumbing to one's
physical drives] is not excluded from synagogue functions (ibid.).
>> The Torah and by this I mean far more than the literal words in Sefer
>> Vayikra says that homosexual acts are equivalent to forbidden heterosexual
>> acts, and that both of them are very bad. Neither is better, in any way,
>> than the other. I concede, arguendo, that a shul would be free to decide
>> that sexual conduct is not relevant to membership. But if a shul admits
>> open homosexuals to membership but denies membership to some guy who is
>> openly living in sin with his sister, because the shul thinks that modern
>> values say the first is good and the second is not, it is flatly
> contradicting the Torah.
A shul that would adopt such a policy is not saying that "the first is good
and second is not", but that the yardstick for "FLAGRANT transgression"
differentiates between the two. As presented by the halakhic sources cited
above, exclusion from the community, on all its different levels, depends less
on the severity of the transgression measured by objective and unchanging Torah
values than upon the degree to which the transgression is regarded as spitting
in the face of the community. Again the best example - which Orrin
doesn't like, but it is relevant nonetheless - is Shabbat violation, which
remains a highly serious violation of Torah values, but which many Jewish
communities (with authoritative rabbinic approval) do not regard as a flagrantly
rebellious act.
Avie Walfish
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jeremy Conway <jeremy.conway@...>
Date: Tue, Sep 14,2010 at 05:01 AM
Subject: Clapping and Dancing on Shabbat
In MJ 59#23, Akiva Miller wrote:
> You wrote (emphasis mine) that "The Minchat Elazar WOULD not have allowed
> clapping by way of applause..." It sounds to me like the Minchat Elazar did
> not explicitly write about applause, and it is only your comment that he
> would not have allowed it. I'd like to know if this is in fact what you mean.
I confirm that Akiva Miller's understanding of what I wrote is correct, and that
also seems to be the understanding of the people who I know who follow this ruling.
The Shulchan Aruch (Code of Jewish Law) does not differentiate between different
types of clapping and dancing, but the Aruch HaShulchan limits the rabbincial
decree to its original context.
G'mar Chatimah tovah.
Yechiel Conway.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Irwin Weiss <irwin@...>
Date: Wed, Sep 8,2010 at 11:01 AM
Subject: Easiest Mitzvah
My friend, Andy Goldfinger, proposes that the Mitzvah of hearing the Shofar is
the "easiest" positive mitzvah. David Tzohar disagrees, and says that sleeping
in the Sukkah is easier, since you are passive and it requires no concentration,
etc.
How about eating a k'zayit (an olive-sized) chunk of Matzah at the Seder? That
seems pretty easy to me.
Anyway, this is reminiscent of Woody Allen's famous quotation. "80% of success
in life is just showing up."
Irwin Weiss
Baltimore
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Russell J Hendel <rjhendel@...>
Date: Mon, Sep 13,2010 at 10:01 PM
Subject: Eldest Brothers Marrying Sisters
Shoshana (MJ 59#24) asserted that Rabbi Jochanan's giving his sister to Resh
Lakish is an example of customs of another period when such things are common.
This is not true. Marriage ALWAYS required the consent of the woman. To marry a
woman against her will is basically an act of rape, slavery or both. It is an
extremely serious crime.
Here is support from the commentary of Rabbi Hirsch: Rav Hirsch notes that when
Eliezer came to secure Rivkah as a wife for Rivkah, and after asking and
obtaining permission from Laban and Bethuel, THEY THEN ASKED RIVKAH - >>WILL YOU
GO WITH THIS MAN<<. Rav Hirsch comments >>This puts to drivel the idea that in
ancient times women were chattel that could be delivered into a marriage without
consent.<<
Indeed, only after she consented, did Laban give her a blessing.
It is true that in general we are suppose to respect customs of different
communities. But that applies to neutral things such as times for prayer, styles
of prayer, eating matzah meal on Passover etc. It does not apply to basic
personal matters which lie at the core of our traditions.
Why then did Rabbi Yochanan "offer" his sister. My opinion is that he did so
because he was attacked in the water and under duress tried to make deals. Even
if you don't assume the attack sexual, the Talmud (BM 84) **explicitly** calls
Resh Lakish LISTIM (a thief) and explicitly talks about the weapons he carried
with him. So he jumps in the water and starts attacking a naked man who is
therefore basically helpless. Under such conditions people try to make deals.
ONe offer would be money. Another offer would be a promise not to talk. Rabbi
Jochanan offer his sister.
My opinion that the attack was sexual is not a slur on Resh Lakish the AMORA but
rather a slur on Resh Lakish the THIEF. I have no obligation to say Resh Lakish
is a thief but not something further. This is before he repented. I also hold a
general opinion that all gangs of thiefs use sexual methods of intimidation and
I believe this was common in the Roman underworld. Finally, the comment by one
person that many people had house plumbing is specious - the rich had plumbing
but thieves picked on the poor since resistance was minimal and volume was heavy.
In any event if you assume (as the Talmud says) that only armed robbery took
place in the pool you understand what Rabbi Jochanan made comments he ordinarily
would not make.
Finally I point out that at one point this thread degenerated into a discussion
on whether I was violating slander laws. I consider this a violation of
netiquette. But at any rate, as I pointed out I added insults to a person who
was then a thief based on my conception of crime. There is nothing forbidden in
this.
Russell Jay Hendel; Ph.d. ASA, http://www.Rashiyomi.com/
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Tue, Sep 14,2010 at 07:01 AM
Subject: Eroticism in Prayer language (was Selichot)
Yisrael Medad <ybmedad@...> wrote (MJ 59#26):
> Martin Stern asked (MJ 59#24):
>
>> it struck me that some of them...use rather erotic imagery...
>
> Well, that is really nothing new. Medieval Jewish literature did not avoid
> erotic language, neither did the Zohar, Ibn Gvirol, etc.
This tradition goes back to Tenakh. Shir hashirim uses precisely such
imagery as a metaphor for the relationship of HKBH to the people of Israel.
Martin Stern
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Daniel Geretz <danny@...>
Date: Mon, Sep 13,2010 at 05:01 PM
Subject: Kaddish Question
Something that I have noticed increasingly lately is the practice by some
shlichay tzibbur (prayer leaders) to alter the traditional (Ashkenazic)
melody for a kaddish in order to say the word "amen" before the congregation
does.
This practice seemed to be confined to the last "amen" in the full kaddish
at the end of an Amidah, which IIRC from my younger days, used to be sung by
the shaliach tzibbur as "v'imru a-a-men", the amen being sung by the
congregation at the same time. Now, it seems increasingly prevalent that the
shalicah tzibbur will sing "v'imru amen" quickly, leaving the congregation
to finish out the melody by singing "amen."
This year, for the first time, I heard something similar done for the half
kaddish before the Musaf Amidah on Rosh Hashanah.
(Please bear with me on this post as I am describing something musical
without the benefit of sound as a medium.)
My question is: Does this practice have any basis in halacha, and if so,
can someone please point me to the appropriate sources?
Thank you and Gmar Chatimah Tova,
Daniel Geretz
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Baruch J. Schwartz <schwrtz@...>
Date: Tue, Sep 14,2010 at 03:01 AM
Subject: Kaddish yatom when l'david hashem ori is straight after alainu
We too (Efrat Central Synagogue) eliminate the kaddish after Ledavid, preserving
the one after Alenu, in order not to overdo it on the number of kaddishim.
However, in light of the findings of R. Shlomo Hayyim Aumann in his recent
article, "Kaddish Ahar Alenu Leshabeah Leminhag Ashkenaz" (= "Kaddish Following
Alenu Leshabeah in the Ashkenazic Rite"), which appeared in Yerushatenu 3
(5769), pp. 156-169, it would seem preferable to omit the kaddish after Alenu,
which, the author demonstrates conclusively, is not an ancient or essential
element in Ashkenazic practice but rather a recent and controversial
development, and to preserve the kaddish said after a mizmor (any mizmor; not
Ledavid Adonai Ori specifically, which in fact is not a part of the authentic
Ashkenazic order of prayer). The article as a whole is very informative and I
would highly recommend reading it in its entirety.
Baruch Schwartz
Efrat
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Carl Singer <carl.singer@...>
Date: Tue, Sep 14,2010 at 08:01 AM
Subject: Kaddish yatom when l'david hashem ori is straight after alainu
Whenever there are two or three "opportunities" to say Kaddish at the end of
davening the practice varies.
Clearly the minhagim vary among shuls. Sometimes this is "formal" policy
and sometimes they vary depending on who the shaliach tzibor or acting gabbai is
at that moment.
I find it unsatisfying that this is not properly communicated - especially
to guests.
Sometimes after an awkward silence someone will proclaim "Kaddish" -- and
mourners then begin. On the other hand sometimes the shaliach tzibor will run
two prayers together -- not stopping for a breath between "u'shmo echad" (the
conclusion of Alainu) and "L'David" -- or "Borchi Nafshi" when it's Rosh Chodesh
to preclude the saying of Kaddish.
Carl
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lectures" <Lectures@...>
Date: Mon, Sep 13,2010 at 05:01 PM
Subject: Kinus Teshuva Lecture Today!
Yeshiva University Center for the Jewish Future - RIETS proudly present the
Twenty-Sixth Annual Hausman/Stern Kinus Teshuva Lecture Mechila in Human and
Halachic Terms:
How Can I Ever Forgive You? Can I Not?
Rabbi Elchanan Adler
The Eva, Morris and Jack K. Rubin Memorial Chair in Rabbinics
Tuesday, September 14, 2010, 8 p.m.
Yeshiva University, Wilf Campus - Belfer Hall, Weissberg Commons
2495 Amsterdam Avenue
Live Webcast at the Marcos and Adina Katz YUTorah.org
For more information, directions and parking, contact <lectures@...>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Batya Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Tue, Sep 14,2010 at 03:01 AM
Subject: Latest Kosher Cooking Carnival
There are some great posts on this latest Kosher Cooking Carnival,
http://me-ander.blogspot.com/2010/09/kosher-cooking-carnival-for-hungry.html
<cid:<part1.00060607.03040102@...>
the monthly round up of internet articles about kosher food, kashrut etc.
Batya Medad
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Batya Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Tue, Sep 14,2010 at 03:01 AM
Subject: Santa Monica, CA?
Is there any Torah/Orthodox community in or near Santa Monica? A
female Israeli friend needs a place to stay at least for a Shabbat while
she does a mitzvah? Please reply to <shilohmuse@...>
Tizku limitzvot,
Batya Medad
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Josh Backon <backon@...>
Date: Tue, Sep 14,2010 at 06:01 AM
Subject: Selichot
Shmuel Himelstein wrote (MJ 59#25):
> Martin Stern points out that the language of the Selichot is unfamiliar.
> Many years ago - I don't remember where - I read that in the Middle Ages
> study of the meaning of the Selichot was part of the Yeshivah curriculum.
Many times Rishonim would quote (as a source) a Payyetan (for example, see
Tosafot in Avoda Zara 17a d"h la'aluka who quotes a Payyetan for the meaning
of a word). Many of the Rishonim of 11th century Provence were also Payyetanim.
See also the article in Hebrew by Mirsky:
http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/sifrut/maamarim/reshit-2.htm#tohen
Josh Backon
<backon@...>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Tue, Sep 14,2010 at 07:01 AM
Subject: Selichot
Shmuel Himelstein wrote (MJ 59#25):
> Martin Stern points out that the language of the Selichot is unfamiliar... I
> should also point out that in the Sefardic communities, as I understand it,
> the same Selichot are said each day, which obviously makes the language much
> more accessible.
Generally the Sefardim do not use piyutim of the 'Kalirian' type, full of
neologisms and cryptic allusions to obscure midrashim, but prefer
compositions of the Spanish school which are written in a pure classical
Hebrew which is itself easier to understand. In fact one needs to be quite
an expert on Tnakh and Midrash before one has any hope of really
understanding most Ashkenazi piyutim including the selichot.
Not only, as Shmuel points out do the Sefardim say the same selichot each
day, they say them from the beginning of Ellul, i.e. at least three weeks
longer than Ashkenazim, which makes them even more familiar.
Martin Stern
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Yisrael Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Tue, Sep 14,2010 at 07:01 AM
Subject: Shofar Blowing at Kotel
Carl Singer in 59:26 brought our attention to this clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIfLbkx4ZIM
and noted "Things we take for granted can be taken away"
I bring your attention to that 1930 report which prohibited the shofar blowing
due to the fact that the Kotel is part of the Haram and the Haram is Waqf property!
I blogged about a few years ago, here:
http://myrightword.blogspot.com/2007/10/first-report-and-then-comment-adviser.html
Yisrael
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Orrin Tilevitz <tilevitzo@...>
Date: Mon, Sep 13,2010 at 05:01 PM
Subject: Throwing bread crumbs to fish on Shabbat/yom tov
Jeanette Friedman wrote (MJ 59#25):
> On the second day of Rosh Hashanna, thousands of people in Brooklyn would
> descend upon the lake in Prospect Park to drop bread crumbs into the water and
> cast away their sins. It was a long walk, and often people would not return
> home, but go to their friends' houses that were closer to the park and then
> take a bus home once Yom Tov was over. The lake in the Japanese Gardens of
> the Brooklyn Botanical Garden was also a popular spot...with people from
> Crown Heights going to the Botanical Gardens and people from Boro Park going
> to Prospect Park.
> No one told anyone that dropping crumbs in the water was forbidden, although
> when it was discovered that boys and girls were talking to each other, it was
> decided that it was no longer permissible to go to the parks for taschlich
> unless accompanied by a parent or responsible chaperone.
Why the second day? Tashlich is on the first day. I haven't been to BBG on Rosh
Hashana, but some Jews from Borough Park still go to Prospect Park to disgorge
their sins on the mallards, a swan or two, and the Canada geese that have
repopulated the lake since their brethren were removed in a parks department
aktion. Not many, though. But they do come with loads of bread. (BTW, another
reason why this conduct is forbidden -- tsar baalei chayim. White bread is bad
for ducks.) And, come to think of it, in the 20+ years I've been going, I don't
remember seeing any frum male-female socializing.
There is also a large group of conservative/reform Jews who have a whole service
by the lake, including blowing a shofar. And then there are the ubiquitous
chabadiks, blowing a shofar for anyone they can get to listen. (I am invariably
approached by several, to whom it does not occur that the bird-watching
binoculars around my neck are the mark of a frum Jew.)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...>
Date: Mon, Sep 13,2010 at 05:01 PM
Subject: Throwing bread crumbs to fish on Shabbat/Yom tov
Jeanette Friedman stated the following (MJ 59 #25):
>
> On the second day of Rosh Hashanna, thousands of people in Brooklyn
> would descend upon the lake in Prospect Park to drop bread crumbs
> into the water and cast away their sins. It was a long walk, and
> often people would not return home, but go to their friends' houses
> that were closer to the park and then take a bus home once Yom Tov was over.
Among normative Ashkenazim, Tashlikh is performed on the second day
of Rosh Hashanah only when it falls on a Sunday. Otherwise they
perform Tashlikh on the first day of Rosh Hashanah, and would
therefore have to sleep over at their friends' houses if they wanted
to return home by bus.
Some Sefardim, in contrast, perform Tashlikh on the first day of RH
even when it falls on Shabbat.
~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=
IRA L. JACOBSON
=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~
mailto:<laser@...>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: <chips@...>
Date: Mon, Sep 13,2010 at 08:01 PM
Subject: Throwing bread crumbs to fish on Shabbat/yom tov
> There was a recent thread on throwing bread crumbs to fish when doing
> tashlich. I have never seen this "minhag" [custom] but do know of the
> custom of shaking out one's pockets as if to shake out one's sins.
>
> Two issues that were brought up, when doing this, is "ba'al tashchit"
> [performing unwanted destruction or waste] as well as the prohibition of
> feeding undomesticated animals on shabbat and yomtov, if this was being
> done on yom tov.
The issue of throwing crumbs to fish at Tashlich (even when not
YomTov) and to the birds on `Shabos Shira` is discussed by
various major poskim like the `Mogen Avraham`. Most disagree with
the customs for reasons of providing human edible food to
non-pets and/or feeding non-pets on YomTov. I am not sure about
the Tashlich custom, but there are major poskim who do provide
leeway for the `Shabos Shira` custom.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: <chips@...>
Date: Mon, Sep 13,2010 at 08:01 PM
Subject: Throwing bread crumbs to fish on Shabbat/yom tov
Jeanette wrote (MJ 59#25):
> No one told anyone that dropping crumbs in the water was forbidden,
> although when it was discovered that boys and girls were talking to each
> other, it was decided that it was no longer permissible to go to the parks
> for taschlich unless accompanied by a parent or responsible chaperone.
Once again , another gross under exaggeration of what the problem was, in
a lot of cases, the boys and girls were not merely 'talking' to each
other. Also keep in mind that there was an overall attempt to not have
Tashlich be a social event for everyone but to return it to what it was
intended to be. It is also a reason why many Brooklynites started to do
Taschlich during the week instead of on YomTov.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
End of Volume 59 Issue 27