Volume 59 Number 84
Produced: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 01:41:31 EST
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
A deep philosophical antinomy
[Sammy Finkelman]
Going two separate ways?
[Shmuel Himelstein]
Ho Chi Minh Yeshivot
[Ira L. Jacobson]
Pikuach-Nefesh on Shabbat (2)
[Akiva Miller Meir Shinnar]
Required volunteer work (2)
[Wendy Baker Ben Katz]
Shiluach Hakein
[Lisa Liel]
Stipends for Torah students (3)
[Frank Silbermann Rabbi Meir Wise Bernard Raab]
Tefillas keva [fixed] = exact wording?
[Sammy Finkelman]
Tzedakah Lottery tickets / Present value in Halacha
[Carl Singer]
Video on gay Orthodox Jews
[Mordechai Horowitz]
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From: Sammy Finkelman <sammy.finkelman@...>
Date: Wed, Nov 17,2010 at 08:01 PM
Subject: A deep philosophical antinomy
Mark Steiner wrote (MJ 59#82):
> I would not use this icon, which means roughly: The preceding sentence is a
> joke. We get into difficulty on sentences like:
>
> A) This sentence is not a joke. :)
>
> A little analysis will reveal that sentence A) is paradoxical; it says of
> itself that it is and is not a joke. Logicians would say: no Internet can
> contain its own joke operator
What's the paradox?
That sentence indicates that *the previous sentence* is mostly a joke,
although it is also a little bit not a joke.
All that :) does is reverse the meaning, or more accurately,
partially reverse the meaning.
:) means that you are partially taking it back. Exactly to what degree
is sometimes intentionally left vague.
While we are on the subject of Internet punctuation, back in MJ 9#32,33,36 ALL
CAPS was discussed. One person said emphasis should be indicated by underlines and
asterisks rather than caps and that claims caps is shouting.
CAPS is only shouting if the message in entirely in CAPS. Otherwise it
is BOLDFACE. Asterisks or underlining mean italics.
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From: Shmuel Himelstein <himels@...>
Date: Fri, Nov 19,2010 at 04:01 AM
Subject: Going two separate ways?
A few days ago, our entire neighborhood (Ramot 02, Jerusalem) received what
appeared to be standard phone books, complete with white and yellow pages,
but with an additional section of blue pages put out by one of the medical
organizations (what Americans would probably call an HMO). Yesterday, I
wanted to look up a friend's phone number in Jerusalem - no dice. I tried to
look up my phone number or my sons' phone numbers - nada! Finally, I checked
what the phone book is - it is a national phone book of "Charedi families in
Israel." Not surprisingly, then, none of our phone numbers appear there. Why
our neighborhood - with maybe 10% Charedim - should get these phone books is
beyond me.
And a bigger question - how was the list prepared? Based on what? Who judged
who is and who is not Charedi? 'Tis a mystery to me. Anyway, as far as I'm
concerned, I do not feel slighted in any way that I'm not included, and -
maybe perversely - am proud that I didn't "make the grade."
Shmuel Himelstein
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From: Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...>
Date: Thu, Nov 18,2010 at 02:01 AM
Subject: Ho Chi Minh Yeshivot
Ms Friedman stated (MJ 59#82):
> And since my father and Shlomo Lorincz were the ones who cooked up
> the deal with Ben Gurion, so many years ago during the Shoah -- my
> father remained in Budapest because he was busy with Reb Burachel
> giving out Mantello papers -- the deal was for Talmidei Chachomim,
I'm not very good at history, but it seems to me that the Sho'a took
place before the founding of the modern State of Israel, so it is not
likely that MK Shlomo Lorincz and PM David Ben-Gurion were working
out deals to avoid service in Zahal during the Sho'a.
~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=
IRA L. JACOBSON
=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~
mailto:<laser@...>
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From: Akiva Miller <kennethgmiller@...>
Date: Mon, Nov 22,2010 at 09:01 AM
Subject: Pikuach-Nefesh on Shabbat
Avraham Brot wrote (MJ 59#83):
> Perhaps I didn't express myself properly. The second Rabbi is certainly
> a talmid chacham, and of course knows the rules of pikuah-nefesh. But
> he didn't feel that he must plan every possible scenario that might
> occur while taking his wife to the hospital. For example, should he
> turn off the ignition after dropping off his wife or should he leave
> the motor running and the lights burning until shabbat is over? If his
> car is blocking the emergency room enterance, should he move it (after
> dropping off his wife) or leave it be until shabbat is over?
>
> He felt that there is no need to delve into the small details, and
> whatever happens, he will decide on the spot and remain a shogeg if
> he erred.
The question of turning off the ignition is discussed in Shemiras Shabbos
K'hilchasa 40:59. Blocking the entrance is there in section 40:57. No one is
capable of anticipating every possible scenario, but if these are "small
details", I wonder which are the larger details that this talmid chacham *did*
plan for.
I am not saying that everyone has the ability to study this particular book. And
a talmid chacham who *is* able to do so, is certainly entitled to follow the
rulings of a different authority. But shouldn't such a person at least
familiarize himself with the situations which are likely to come up, and think
about possible solutions in advance? Isn't it irresponsible not to?
Akiva Miller
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From: Meir Shinnar <chidekel@...>
Date: Mon, Nov 22,2010 at 08:01 PM
Subject: Pikuach-Nefesh on Shabbat
Abe Brot <abe.brot@...> wrote (MJ 59#83):
> Perhaps I didn't express myself properly. The second Rabbi is certainly a
> talmid chacham, and of course knows the rules of pikuah-nefesh. But he
> didn't feel that he must plan every possible scenario that might occur while
> taking his wife to the hospital. For example, should he turn off the
> ignition after dropping off his wife or should he leave the motor running
> and the lights burning until shabbat is over? If his car is blocking the
> emergency room enterance, should he move it (after dropping off his wife) or
> leave it be until shabbat is over?
When I was in Boston (1978-82), people in the Boston community had the
following psak in the name of Rav Soloveichik z"l about what to do
with the car. The law is that one does whatever a woman in labor
wants to be done, in order to put her at ease - a somewhat broader
heter than for standard pikuach nefesh - presumably because one needs
the woman not to worry to be able to concentrate on labor. The advice
was to have the woman express her desire that the car be taken care
off - so she is not worrying about the car - both before the event,
but preferably at the hospital (honey, do you want me park the car...)
- and therefore fulfill her wishes...
Meir Shinnar
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From: Wendy Baker <wbaker@...>
Date: Mon, Nov 22,2010 at 10:01 AM
Subject: Required volunteer work
Freda Birnbaum (MJ59#83) Wrote, regarding my post on volunteers and Chesed
requirements (MJ 59#82):
> The stuff she describes can be very positive. However, I've long wondered
> about the value of forcing people to do "volunteer" work. How volunteer
> is it if it's a requirement?
Many young people who started as a required Chesed credit volunteer have
returned in later years when no credit is given by the school. This does
not apply to everyone, but enough that you know the requirement has worked
as we all hope it will.
Wendy Baker
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From: Ben Katz <BKatz@...>
Date: Mon, Nov 22,2010 at 12:01 PM
Subject: Required volunteer work
Freda B Birnbaum <fbb6@...> wrote (MJ 59#83):
> Wendy Baker (MJ 59#82) wrote impressively about getting kids involved
> in chessed projects.
> The stuff she describes can be very positive. However, I've long wondered
> about the value of forcing people to do "volunteer" work. How volunteer
> is it if it's a requirement?
The army has the oxymoronic concept of an obligated volunteer. Since you need
to volunteer for a certain amount of things to get promoted, it is not exactly
voluntary.
Actually, now that I think about it, it is kind of like being a faculty member
:-). Everyone is expected to volunteer for a certain amount of service to the
institution.
Happy Thanksgiving to all of us stateside in galut.
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From: Lisa Liel <lisa@...>
Date: Sun, Nov 21,2010 at 10:01 AM
Subject: Shiluach Hakein
Why does the mitzvah of Shiluach Hakan (sending away the mother bird
before taking its eggs or chicks) not seem to apply to egg-laying chickens?
Thanks,
Lisa
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From: Frank Silbermann <frank_silbermann@...>
Date: Mon, Nov 22,2010 at 09:01 AM
Subject: Stipends for Torah students
David Tzoharwrote (MJ 59#83):
> Bernard Raab wrote (MJ 59#81) that Torah study without a program
> of demonstrated accomplishment and an end goal is self-indulgence.
> Unfortunately Torah learning cannot be subsumed under the American
> work ethic. The primary goal of Torah study is the study itself.
> This is called Torah lishmah.
I agree, but this is also why I disagree with those who try to justify state
subsidies for Torah study with university fellowships. University fellowships
do not subsidize study of, say, the Hottentots lishmah.
> ...The Maimonidean ideal of the the Torah scholar who is a working
> professional independent of public or private support is practically
> unattainable.
Thank you for taking it upon yourself to relieve me of this burden.
> The fact is that from the time of the Torah there has always been
> a cadre of Torah scholars who were supported by the Jewish People,
> from the Levites, through the example of Zevulun supporting Yissachar,
> the students of the great Babylonian acadamies etc.
The Levites are not a good analogy, as they were specifically selected by G-d,
and did have work to do besides learning (e.g. moving the Mishkan). I've heard
of the example of Zevulun supporting Yissachar, but I don't know whether its
basis is anything other than Midrash. How exactly were the students of the
great Babylonian acadamies funded? By taxes or family members? A cadre, yes,
but only that.
> The real avreich is someone who is willing to live on a subsistence level in
> order to keep serious Torah scholarship alive. Far from being self indulgence,
> this is the fulfillment of shlichut. On the other hand those who think that
> baale battim on their own can keep Torah scholarship alive are engaging in
> self-delusion.
Well, now you're changing the topic. Are you talking about serious Torah
scholarship, or are you talking about Torah study lishmah? Torah study lishmah
can be done just as well by balle battim on their own as by anyone else. The
only Torah study that requires full-time dedication is Torah study towards the
goal of great achievement.
Also, we must distinguish between those who are willing to live on a subsistence
level in order to keep serious Torah scholarship alive, versus those who are
willing to live on a subsistence level in order to avoid the world (the army,
earning a living, exposure to the less-frum, etc.) or due to a perverse social
pressure.
Frank Silbermann Memphis, Tennessee
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From: Rabbi Meir Wise <Meirhwise@...>
Date: Mon, Nov 22,2010 at 12:01 PM
Subject: Stipends for Torah students
Some of our correspondents seem to have forgotten that during the battle with
Midyan, Moshe Rabbenu had someone at the back studying Torah for every soldier
he sent to fight. Dovid Hamelech continued this practice. In our own times Rav
Simche Hakohen Kook together with the Bostoner Rebbe revived this concept.
Closing the kollelim is therefore tantemount to endangering the lives of our
soldiers.
And whilst we are being so selective about allowing and not allowing change, it
seems that kollelim are a bad innovation but paying rabbis a salary is ok!
One correspendant wrote that kollelim wouldn't be so bad if they produced rabbis
and dayanim etc.
Failing to realise that salaried rabbis is against the Talmud and Rishonim.
Unheard of in Yemen until 1949 and continuing in my little Litvak family.
So yes Ms Gordon, Ms Friedman et al - I agree - let's close down the kollelim
and stop paying the rabbis and all hope for the best.
Rabbi (unsalaried) Meir Wise
London
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From: Bernard Raab <beraab@...>
Date: Mon, Nov 22,2010 at 01:01 PM
Subject: Stipends for Torah students
David Tzohar wrote (MJ 59#83):
> Bernard Raab wrote (MJ59#81) that Torah study without a program of
> demonstrated accomplishment and an end goal is self-indulgence.
> Unfortunately Torah learning cannot be subsumed under the American work
> ethic. The primary goal of Torah study is the study itself. This is called
> Torah lishmah.
>
> The Torah commands us all "vehagita bo yomam valailah". In fact very few are
> able and even fewer are willing to devote themselves to full time Torah
> study. The Maimonidean ideal of the the Torah scholar who is a working
> professional independent of public or private support is practically
> unattainable. The fact is that from the time of the Torah there has always
> been a cadre of Torah scholars who were supported by the Jewish People, from
> the Levites, through the example of Zevulun supporting Yissachar, the
> students of the great Babylonian acadamies etc.
>
> The real avreich is someone who is willing to live on a subsistence level in
> order to keep serious Torah scholarship alive. Far from being self indulgence,
> this is the fulfillment of shlichut. On the other hand those who think that
> baale battim on their own can keep Torah scholarship alive are engaging in
> self-delusion.
Those who think that the current system of kollelim is sustainable are engaging
in self-delusion. If we were talking about a "cadre of Torah scholars", there
would not be any problem. But what we have now is not a cadre but an army of
...students?, learners?, benkel-kvetchers?, in the inimitable words of Jeanette
Friedman. Perhaps you haven't noticed, but in the kollel world of today, a newly
married yungerleit chusen who actually has plans for a profession or a vocation
is most rare. His kallah may have plans to become a sheitel-maker, or child-care
worker, or home-caterer, and thus to provide some support, but his time is to be
devoted to Torah learning without any output, schedule, or end goal. Perhaps
self-indulgent is too harsh; his education has not prepared him to make any
other choice, and that is the real problem.
Bernie R.
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From: Sammy Finkelman <sammy.finkelman@...>
Date: Mon, Nov 22,2010 at 05:01 PM
Subject: Tefillas keva [fixed] = exact wording?
Ira Jacobson wrote (MJ 59#81):
> Sammy Finkelman stated (MJ 59#75):
>> Keva actually is an adjective and not a noun, so it doesn't mean any
>> of the things proposed.
> Qeva is a noun meaning permanency. As in "aseh torat'kha qeva,"
Please, that's won't work. It can't mean there the quality of
"permanency" "Something permanent" might be a possible noun, but it's
really an adjectival clause (in English) in connection with the word
Torah. (Even if some grammar writers would not use adjectival clause
to describe this kind of thing)
I don't think "permanent" captures the meaning at all because
something that is keva can be changed. It's not permanent, just
linked. "Regular" or "standard" is much closer than permanent but it
is still not right. I think keva means it belongs with or has been
connected to. It's really hard to capture the sense.
We first have to figure out what the Hebrew means before we can
translate it into English and there may not be any precise equivalent
in English. "Linked" isn't the right word, just maybe its first cousin.
Keva is a bit stronger actually. Each time you might prefer a
different English word.
What I meant when I said keva was an adjective was that it is a
very general sort of word (as adjectives can be) and so its real
meaning in a sentence depends very much on the context and it could
easily not be apparent, because we don't don't know in what way the
thing it is being applied to is, or should be, keva. There are some
very general adjectives like that. You don't get nouns like that very
easily. If you realize it is an adjective, you're already partway
there to solving it.
> or (modernly) tz'va qeva, which means the regular army.
Regular is an adjective there. It modifies "army", although it really means the
people not in for the 2 year term - the standing army.
> The adjective is qavu`a, qevu'ah, qevu'im, qevu'ot.
Yes, there are other conjugations of the word. Sometimes the root can
be changed into a verb and yes, there are also forms that are
adjectives. Keva has the most general meaning maybe. It might be
applied maybe only to abstract nouns (not objects) I think sometimes
keva might be itself a noun but it's not that in Pirkei Avos 1:15.
qavu`a, qevu'ah look like two different spellings of the same word. I
think of "makom kevuah" - regular place, place you are accustomed to,
or set aside. Makom keva would be the very general idea of having an
established place. Makon Kevuah is an actual location.
> qevu'im.
I think that's a verb.
> qevu'ot.
These are one of the limited types of Jewish years possible. There are only 14,
because not every day of the week that Rosh Hashonah can begin with can start
any type of year. That's a noun actually, not an adjective..
With a dot in the middle of the vav - I don't know how;d you'd spell
it, it means regularity or permanence. Also a noun.
You see forms of the word keva used here in Hilchos Kiddush haChodesh 5:
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/i/3805.htm
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From: Carl Singer <carl.singer@...>
Date: Mon, Nov 22,2010 at 01:01 PM
Subject: Tzedakah Lottery tickets / Present value in Halacha
Aryeh Gielchinsky (MJ 59#83) introduces a most interesting topic and covers it
very well.
I would differ a bit in terminology -- "expected value" is more on point
with the lottery. "present value" as used today refers more to the time value of
money. For example, the present value of $100 that I will give you 1 year from
today is $100/(1+r) where r is some interest rate. So if the interest rate, r,
is 5% then $100 a year from now is has a present value (or net present value)
of $95.24. In other words if you put $95.24 in the bank at 5% interest you
would have $100.00 in one year.
Not to disagree with the Gemara in Bava Metzia but mathematically many
current tzedukah lotteries announce the total number of tickets sold. For
example, $1 per ticket, 5,000 tickets sold, cash prize $1,000. You have 1
chance in 5,000 of winning $1,000 thus the expected value of your ticket is
$1,000/5,000 = 20 cents.
If a normal lottery has an expected value of, say, 50 cents then one might
imply that 30 cents was tzedukah - per the discussion brought forward. (As
brought forward in the original posting.)
The example re: the partnership is not exactly the same -- because one usually
enters into a partnership with some expectations. For example, if I'm a banker
and plony is a builder -- I work with plony and we decide to buy a piece of land
for $100,000 and estimate that it will take $150,000 to build on that land and
we project a sales price of $350,000. And we agree to split the profits. This
partnership has an expected profit of $350,00 - $100,000 - $150,000 = $100,000.
Since we agreed to split the profit 50-50, I, the banker get $50,000 for
having risked my $250,000 and plony the builder gets $50,000 for building.
Clearly if the building expenses and/or the sales price differ from original
estimates, the profits will differ.
Going back to the original points -- very well stated in the original posting --
how much of the $100 might be considered towards Maaser is really an intriguing
question. Let's add a twist - what happens if you win this lottery? (re:
maaser) If you lose (which is likely) can you simply say that you had "no
chance" of winning and just bought the ticket to give tzedukah and thus claim
all $100 was maaser?
Chinese auctions are yet another story -- and much more complex -- the variable
cost of the ticket packages, the chance of winning (based on how many tickets
are deposited for any given item), etc., make for additional complexity.
Carl
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From: Mordechai Horowitz <mordechai@...>
Date: Thu, Nov 18,2010 at 12:01 AM
Subject: Video on gay Orthodox Jews
Leah wrote (MJ 59#82):
> I saw this video, designed to encourage gay Jewish teenagers to refrain from
> committing suicide (which is a statistically demonstrated problem)
Homosexuality is a very dangerous lifestyle. The suicide rate among
homosexuals is one of many reasons we need actively combat the radical
homosexual agenda that seeks to legitimize this dangerous lifestyle.
The average life expectancy for homosexual men is about 20 years less
than that of a non homosexual. Compare it to cigarette smokers who lose
13 years of their life:
http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/homosexuality/ho0075.html#17
Good news there are jewish groups out there to help get anyone caught in
this lifestyle to get out:
http://www.jonahweb.org/index.php
It is imperative anyone who is involved with homosexuality get the
appropriate medical care to get out of this lifestyle. Parents in
particular have an obligation not to try to understand it any more than
they would understand their child having cancer. And just as parents
would reject a doctor who said cancer isn't a disease its a lifestyle so
too they need to reject those quacks who for political reasons discourage
medical treatment for their children caught in this deadly lifestyle.
It may be difficult to find a competent counselor and the radical gay
activists act as thought police (for example having students who reject
the gay agenda expelled from counseling programs) intimidate those who
seek a cure for this illness into silence. But there is hope and people
need to seek help where available.
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End of Volume 59 Issue 84
