Volume 60 Number 97
Produced: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 14:59:16 EDT
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
A Unique Iranian Custom? (4)
[Martin Stern Michael Poppers Martin Stern Robert Rubinoff]
Question re: Yekke Minhagim
[Carl Singer]
Seating etiquette (6)
[Yisrael Medad David Ziants Joseph Kaplan Martin Stern Martin Stern Martin Stern]
The week of Tisha be'Av this year?
[Menashe Elyashiv]
Unknowning forbidden relations
[Martin Stern]
Women and Tallitot (3)
[Keith Bierman Joseph Kaplan Leah S. R. Gordon]
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From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Tue, Jul 17,2012 at 04:01 PM
Subject: A Unique Iranian Custom?
Sholom Parnes's joke (MJ 60#96) reminds me of a similar one:
How can you tell that a Chasid was originally a Yekke? He always comes
promptly 23 minutes late.
Martin Stern
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From: Michael Poppers <MPoppers@...>
Date: Tue, Jul 17,2012 at 04:01 PM
Subject: A Unique Iranian Custom?
Re Martin Stern's reply (above):
The joke I heard some time ago was:
What happened when the Yekke married the Chasid? The chupah was exactly one
hour late!
All the best from
Michael Poppers * Elizabeth, NJ
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From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Tue, Jul 17,2012 at 04:01 PM
Subject: A Unique Iranian Custom?
Stuart Pilichowski wrote (MJ 60#96):
> When the clock showed it was time for mincha to begin, I always made an effort
> to convince the group that waiting for the Rabbi to arrive was more important
> than starting on time. I told them, It's not as if he's watching Jeopardy!
Perhaps an allowance could be made for minchah in the summer, when people
don't have to get back to work, but I am not sure that it is justifiable in
the winter or for shacharit. When we set the times it is as if we are
telling HKBH to expect us then. The Rabbi should know the starting time so
why should he keep Him waiting?
> Nowadays in Israel ... I like to start late if someone has to say kaddish
> and we don't have a minyan at the announced time.
A case of the tail (kaddish) wagging the dog (tefillah)! I hope Stuart would
not keep the minyan waiting for a late kaddish-soger to come -- as our old
gabbai used to say, "If you want to be an aveil you have to come on time!"
Martin Stern
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From: Robert Rubinoff <rubinoff@...>
Date: Tue, Jul 17,2012 at 06:01 PM
Subject: A Unique Iranian Custom?
Re Sholom Parnes's joke (MJ 60#96):
> So, if you cross a Yekke with a Chabadnik, you get........
>
> Moshiach who comes on time!
The way I heard it was, you get someone who always starts davening exactly
half an hour late.
Robert
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From: Carl Singer <carl.singer@...>
Date: Tue, Jul 17,2012 at 05:01 PM
Subject: Question re: Yekke Minhagim
Martin Stern replied in MJ 60#96 to my MJ 60#95 submission:
>> On a weeknight he had Yahrzeit and, based on his request and
>> the "pecking" order, he davened for the amud for ma'ariv.
>>
>> But being a Yekke whose minhag is that only one person says Kaddish
>> for the tzibbor -- since someone else in attendance was
>> saying kaddish he, himself, did not say kaddish -- only responded.
>> I certainly respect his decision -- but I'm wondering how one might
>> look at this re: minhag hamakom -- as the minhag of our shul is that
>> all mourners recite the kaddish in unison.
> There are two aspects to this problem:
> 1. As regards the congregation, I can't see how the fact that he
> did not say kaddish could be a violation of minhag hamakom since
> it would not be obvious that he was departing from it - after all,
> not everyone who has the amud is an aveil or has yahrzeit. Those
> not knowing the facts would have assumed that the person saying kaddish
> could not fulfil the role of shliach tzibbur and so he was doing so instead.
I wasn't at all concerned with him violating (if there is such a thing)
Minhag hamakom -- I was looking for an "out" so that he might say kaddish given
his locale.
Carl
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From: Yisrael Medad <yisrael.medad@...>
Date: Tue, Jul 17,2012 at 05:01 PM
Subject: Seating etiquette
Josh Backon's joke at MJ 60:96 about the American synagogue on the High
Holidays with the punchline:
> The usher says, "OK but DON'T LET ME CATCH YOU PRAYING !!!"
is no joke with those of us who enter into the Temple Mount esplanade. It will
result in Waqf officials screaming, Israeli police removing, and then getting
banned for future entrance.
--
Yisrael Medad
Shiloh
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From: David Ziants <dziants@...>
Date: Tue, Jul 17,2012 at 05:01 PM
Subject: Seating etiquette
Josh Backon (MJ 60#96) wrote:
> Seeing someone sit in one's makom kavua in shul reminds me of the
> old joke about the American synagogue on the High Holidays. Murray
> doesn't have a ticket and the usher adamantly refuses to let him
> in.
> Murray says, "I just want to speak with my business partner Irving
> Cohen in the 4th row." The usher says, "OK but DON'T LET ME CATCH
> YOU PRAYING !!!"
>
> Seriously, in our shul in Jerusalem, the gabbay guides guests and
> other visitors to seats that won't be used by regular mitpallelim.
Hearing this joke reminds me of another joke that I made up as a result once,
many years ago, of coming as a "tourist" through the visitors' centre and at
other times davening in the shul when I happened to be in the building for other
matters.
David (not me) comes to the visitors' centre of an Israeli
institution which has famous stained-glass windows in its shul. "All
I want to do is daven mincha," he asks the clerk at the pay desk.
The clerk answers, "You may go in just this time ... but just do not
let me catch you looking at the windows!!!"
David Ziants
Ma'aleh Adumim,
Israel
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From: Joseph Kaplan <penkap@...>
Date: Tue, Jul 17,2012 at 06:01 PM
Subject: Seating etiquette
Martin Stern commented (MJ 60#96):
> This is a very important distinction. In a shul with fixed pews, people keep
> their tallit, tefillin, siddur etc. in their desk, and it is inconvenient if
> someone else 'squats' in it."
My shul just recently built a new sanctuary with fixed pews; previously we
had movable chairs. However, since the shul policy is that no one has an
official makom kavu'ah (even though many men and women sit in the same seat
every week, no one is asked to move if they sit in such a seat), the rule
is that no one is to leave a tallit or siddur etc. in the desk. When the
shul is cleaned motza'ay Shabbat, any such items left in the desk are
removed to the coatroom.
Joseph
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From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Wed, Jul 18,2012 at 04:01 AM
Subject: Seating etiquette
Carl Singer wrote (MJ 60#96):
> [1] I can't speak with statistical certainty, but I find that older
> visitors when arriving in shule (alone, without a host) tend to ask where
> they might sit. Perhaps it's because they don't want to be moved after
> they've settled in -- perhaps it's because over the years they have learned
> better how to deal with circumstances and situations.
Perhaps the real reason is that they understand that some peole have a
preference for their regular seat and, viewing themselves as guests, are
prepared to be more polite.
Martin Stern
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From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Wed, Jul 18,2012 at 04:01 AM
Subject: Seating etiquette
Michael Rogovin wrote (MJ 60#96):
> You could also move around each week - a nice way to meet new people (just
> don't talk when it is inappropriate to do so).
Is there any appropriate time to socialise in shul? See Shulchan Aruch,
Orach Chaim 131:1.
Martin Stern
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From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Wed, Jul 18,2012 at 05:01 AM
Subject: Seating etiquette
Michael Rogovin wrote (MJ 60#90):
> The bottom line for me is that if you want a reserved seat, come on time -
> for birkat hashachar. If someone is in your seat, be a mench and move.
Having read his and many others' suggestions in the discussion, I realise
that there probably is no foolproof way of resolving the problem.
Michael's suggestion to come early is obviously ideal so long as the visitor
is not even earlier, as happened to me the other day (I arrived about 10
minutes before the scheduled starting time). However, it is not feasible for
elderly or unwell members who may come late for perfectly legitimate reasons
and, perhaps more than anyone else, really do need their fixed places.
> It is better to welcome guests than sit in a makom kavuah.
Of course, welcoming guests is very important. Perhaps a large sign at the
door, which would be hard to miss, saying something like "We are delighted
to welcome visitors and reserve seats specifically for them. Please ask
anyone to direct you to one of them" might be effective, though I suspect
some people would refuse "on principle" to being "bullied".
Martin Stern
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From: Menashe Elyashiv <Menashe.Elyashiv@...>
Date: Wed, Jul 18,2012 at 02:01 AM
Subject: The week of Tisha be'Av this year?
Re Larry Israel's query (MJ 60#96):
R.Y. Karo brings two opinions: the week before or not at all. His pesak is
that this year, there is no week of Tisha B'Av, except of course, TB
itself. So Sefaradim have no piles of dirty laundry and can take hot
showers instead of cold. Of course, we all would prefer having the Beit
Hamikdash.
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From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Tue, Jul 17,2012 at 04:01 PM
Subject: Unknowning forbidden relations
Keith Bierman (MJ 60#96) wrote:
> Martin Stern wrote (MJ 60#95):
>
>> .., the punishment would be entirely just.
>> She could not bring a chatat for atonement because that was only available
>> to a shogeg (someone who sinned through carelessness).
>
> If she suffered amnesia she could have been unknowing as well (no doubt there
> are other ways this could come about (invalid get, etc.)).
He has quoted me too selectively. What I actually wrote was:
> Kelapei shemaya galya [in the eyes of heaven it is known]
> whether she was or was not aware so the punishment would be entirely just.
> She could not bring a chatat for atonement because that was only available
> to a shogeg (someone who sinned through carelessness).
In heaven it would certainly be known whether she was a real ones [under
duress], as in the sort of cases he raises, and did not need to bring a
chatat, or a meizid [deliberate transgressor] and was unable to bring one. A
chatat cannot be brought where there is a safeik [doubt], and this precludes
her from doing so.
Martin Stern
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From: Keith Bierman <khbkhb@...>
Date: Tue, Jul 17,2012 at 04:01 PM
Subject: Women and Tallitot
Martin Stern wrote (MJ 60#96):
> Dr. Steven Oppenheimer wrote (MJ 60#91):
>
>> Yesterday, a woman who had been warned before decided to violate the
>> compromise agreement and wear a "man's tallit." She was arrested and
>> told if she repeats her action she would face a fine in the future. ... The
>> woman who was arrested said she knew her action was confrontational but that
>> she wanted to make a point.
>
> Would this woman insist on refusing to don the clothing required when
> entering a Catholic Church in, for example, Spain? If not, why should she
> insist on flouting the sanctity of a Jewish holy place and offending other
> worshippers?
>
Shouldn't we assume the best rather then worst of motives?
I recall my grandfather (z"l) periodically donning his father's tattered
tallit (I was too young at the time to note any specific pattern); when
I queried him about it, he said it was to fulfill a promise he'd made his
father.
If someone, ala Zelophehad, had only daughters, and he'd requested one
(or any) of them to don his tallit while traveling to the kotel, would this
be a good thing for his daughter to have done (despite the protests of the
local gabbaim) or not? If not, what should one do if one's duties to one's
parents happen to annoy someone?
As far as the tallit being a particularly male garment, there certainly
are (non-jewish) societies where a 4-cornered garment (typically with a
hole in the center ... that is a pancho) is often worn by both men and
women...so is a tallit's color really a meaningful distinction (I've
certainly seen some men wear colorful tallitot)?
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From: Joseph Kaplan <penkap@...>
Date: Tue, Jul 17,2012 at 06:01 PM
Subject: Women and Tallitot
Martin Stern asks about a woman wearing a man's tallit at the Kotel (MJ 60#96):
> Would this woman insist on refusing to don the clothing required when
> entering a Catholic Church in, for example, Spain? If not, why should
> she insist on flouting the sanctity of a Jewish holy place and offending
> other worshippers?"
I don't think that's the right comparison. The right one is with a Catholic
woman who believed that the church's clothing rule was anti-female. One
might argue, of course, that such a woman should follow the rules too, but
that would require somewhat of a different analysis; i.e., there is a
difference between an insider and an outsider violating a rule.
Joseph
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From: Leah S. R. Gordon <leah@...>
Date: Tue, Jul 17,2012 at 07:01 PM
Subject: Women and Tallitot
Re the contribution of Martin Stern (MJ 60#96):
The "woman who had been warned before" isn't some nameless/faceless
entity. She's a mild-mannered woman I've seen at shul here in Cambridge,
MA on occasion. She has a tallit that is hers, and that she wears all the
time, and she kept wearing HER OWN tallit without adjusting what she wore
based on chareidi opinions. She was going to HER (all of our) Jewish
religious site and davening the same davening each of us does daily.
Unlike Martin's analogy, it could be more appropriate to ask, "if you were
going to a Spanish church, would you really insist on wearing your kippa?"
[I bet the answer is yes!]
Let me also reiterate that the Kotel is her, and my, and all of our "holy
site" - and it's somewhat specious to claim that a person davening there
Jewishly is "flouting" the sanctity. I will ask again for the nth time on
MJ: don't you think someone trying to flout Judaism would be doing
something that isn't learning/davening/laining?
For some reason, some people assume that women or others who protest
misogyny in Judaism must be totally fine and "open-minded" about it in the
rest of the world. I'm pretty sure I've read that assertion here on MJ in
the past [oblique reference to the listmember deleted --Mod.]. So let me be
the first to respond to that allegation: No, we who believe women are people
too, and who believe that women are Jews and have the right to pray Jewishly
etc., are not only upset with Jewish people who treat us badly - it's just that
those events happen more often in our lives, and have more impact on our
identities and communities -- but also object to misogyny in the rest of the
world, and are not excessively open-minded about such things.
I blogged about Deb Houben (the woman in question) and her situation when
it happened, if anyone is interested:
http://queenoftada.blogspot.com/2012/06/because-weve-solved-rest-of-middle.html
--Leah S. R. Gordon
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End of Volume 60 Issue 97