Volume 61 Number 13
Produced: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 16:22:20 EDT
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Accommodating both women and men in shul
[Leah S. R. Gordon]
Chasan getting maftir at the aufruf (4)
[Joel Rich Perets Mett Sholom Parnes Joseph Kaplan]
Cherem D'Rabbenu Gershom (4)
[Martin Stern Josh Backon Martin Stern Mechy Frankel]
Davenning in a loud voice (3)
[Joel Rich Elliot Berkovits Yisrael Medad]
Facilities in Santa Fe?
[Mechy Frankel]
Meat after Tisha B'av (2)
[Isaac Balbin Robert Schoenfeld]
No Tachanun at a Wedding
[Harlan Braude]
Waiting for the Rabbi
[Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz]
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From: Leah S. R. Gordon <leah@...>
Date: Wed, Aug 15,2012 at 06:01 AM
Subject: Accommodating both women and men in shul
Martin Stern wrote (MJ 61#12):
> Bill Coleman wrote (MJ 61#11):
>> Stuart Wise wrote (MJ 61#10):
>> In reply to Deborah Wenger (MJ 61#08):
>>> Under the halachic circumstances, I don't believe "women" and "people"
>>> are interchangeable. As far as I can tell, most Orthodox congregations are
>>> not egalitarian.
>> I find this attitude incomprehensible. Personally, I find it
>> uncomfortable to daven in a room where women are not accommodated. This
>> issue has nothing to do with egalitarianism, it has to do with treating
>> other human beings with respect.
>
> In most communities, women do not come to shul on ordinary weekdays.
> Unfortunately the same is true of many men (though some may be justified by
> having to leave early for work), so many congregations daven in a smaller
> beit hamidrash which does not have any mechitzah.
I would suggest to Mr. Stern that women as well may be justified by having
to leave early for work. (It happens that I write this at 5:30am local
time, just ahead of the sun, when indeed I am on my way out to work.)
Yet I agree that it is unfortunate that more women and men do not come to
shul every day. Since fewer women attend, that is extra unfortunate. :)
>
> It is unfair of Bill to castigate them for not making provision for the
> rare
> occasions when the odd woman chooses to turn up. If a woman wants to come
> in
> such circumstances, it is only reasonable that she should give prior
> warning
> wherever possible so that a temporary mechitzah can be installed. Just
> turning up and then taking umbrage because the facility is unavailable is
> unrealistic.
>
>
I understood Mr. Coleman to be saying that he would be upset to be part of
a community where the attitude was, as implied, "let them leave or stay in
the hall and it's their problem; if they are offended, they aren't really
Orthodox". There's a world of difference between that and what Mr. Stern
describes above.
As a religious woman, I hope my shul will always be full of men like Mr.
Coleman in this regard.
Let's also remember that the particular situation - Tisha B'Av - is one on
which many many Jews, including the majority of Orthodox women, would like
to daven with a congregation. Also, Mr. Wise was more likely to offend the
"really" Orthodox women, because presumably women more to the Egalitarian
end of the spectrum, would read Eicha on their own if needed. (By the way,
my understanding is that women's Eicha readings are done by some Orthodox
Women's Tefila groups, so this is a possibility.)
--Leah S. R. Gordon
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From: Joel Rich <JRich@...>
Date: Wed, Aug 15,2012 at 06:01 AM
Subject: Chasan getting maftir at the aufruf
Chaim Casper wrote (MJ 61#12):
> The source for the order of precedence in aliyot for hiyuvim (obligations)
> is found among others in the Bi'ur Halakhah 136 ("On Shabbat and Yom Tov..."):
Fully agree, however to keep things in perspective, iirc R' Soloveitchik pointed
out that this list was created due to practical necessity, not because of any
inherent torah order (i.e. could have used height as a determining factor)
KT
Joel Rich
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From: Perets Mett <p.mett00@...>
Date: Wed, Aug 15,2012 at 07:01 AM
Subject: Chasan getting maftir at the aufruf
Martin Stern (MJ 61#12) wrote:
> Since a chatan is a chiyuv for an aliyah and maftir is not a 'proper' aliyah
> since, in principle, it can be given to a child under barmitzvah provided he
> understands what he is reading, it would appear that it is improper to give
> it to a chatan. The same would apply to a barmitzvah boy who has not had an
> aliyah on the previous Monday or Thursday.
The two cases are not entirely analogous.
A barmitsva boy on the first occasion after reaching the age of 13 should
not be given maftir, which could be given to a minor, since the aliya would
not proclaim his majority.
However, when the barmitsva boy reads the whole sedra (something a minor may
not) there is no objection to him receiving maftir.
In the case of a choson, the chiyuv is for an aliya, and in some communities
the custom is that the choson is given maftir.
Perets Mett
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From: Sholom Parnes <sholomjparnes@...>
Date: Wed, Aug 15,2012 at 08:01 AM
Subject: Chasan getting maftir at the aufruf
Of course there is the (probably apocryphal) story about the fight that
broke out in the Satmar Shteibel.
Present that Shabbat were a Bar Mitzva boy and a Chatan.
The fight was over who gets Maftir.
They brought the question to the Rebbe and he ruled, "Whichever one of them
is older gets the Maftir".
Sholom J Parnes
Hamelech David 65/3
Efrat 90435 ISRAEL
972-2-993-2227
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From: Joseph Kaplan <penkap@...>
Date: Wed, Aug 15,2012 at 10:01 AM
Subject: Chasan getting maftir at the aufruf
R. Chaim Casper (MJ 61#12) notes that one of the chiyuvim for an aliyah on
Shabbat is "A husband whose wife is in shul for the first time after giving
birth". He then adds that "the husband can then say "Birkat Hagomel" on her
behalf". The question is whether he is still a chiyuv if, as is often the
case in my shul and many others, the mother is the one who makes the gomel.
Joseph
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From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Wed, Aug 15,2012 at 06:01 AM
Subject: Cherem D'Rabbenu Gershom
Isaac Balbin wrote (MJ 61#12):
> It couldn't have applied to Australia. He didn't know it existed and there
> were no Jews there at that time.
This is not true since the Cherem D'Rabbenu Gershom would apply to
communities set up in Australia by Jews who came from ones where it had
already been accepted.
Martin Stern
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From: Josh Backon <backon@...>
Date: Wed, Aug 15,2012 at 07:01 AM
Subject: Cherem D'Rabbenu Gershom
Gilad Gevaryahu wrote (MJ 61#12):
> I always thought that the cherem of Rabbenue Gershom against polygamy reflected
> the Christian society norms in western Europe, where he lived, and that only
> one wife allowed to a man, whereas it never took hold in Muslim countries where
> the norm was polygamy.
Indeed, Rav Yaakov Emden wrote in She'elat YAAVETZ 2:15 that the Cherem
D'Rabbenu Gershom had nothing to do with Judaism but was simply to comply with
non-Jewish rules and regulations in Lotharingia 1000 years ago.
Josh Backon
<backon@...>
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From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Wed, Aug 15,2012 at 08:01 AM
Subject: Cherem D'Rabbenu Gershom
Gilad J. Gevaryahu wrote (MJ 61#12):
> I always thought that the cherem of Rabbenue Gershom against polygamy
> reflected the Christian society norms in western Europe, where he lived, and
> that only one wife allowed to a man, whereas it never took hold in Muslim
> countries where the norm was polygamy.
Even in countries where polygyny is permitted, the vast majority of men only
take one wife so it is inaccurate to refer to it as a 'norm'. What may be
permitted is not necessarily compulsory!
Martin Stern
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From: Mechy Frankel <michaeljfrankel@...>
Date: Wed, Aug 15,2012 at 12:01 PM
Subject: Cherem D'Rabbenu Gershom
The cherem also impacted another ancient - and apparently unresolved at the end
of Talmudic and Gaonic times - machloqes, whether yibbum (levirate marriage) or
chalitzoh (the ritual of "divorce" which negated the obligation to undergo a
levirate marriage) should take precedence. Levi Ginzburg had argued the cherem
itself was mainly responsible for the final resolution in Ashkenaz that
chalitzoh takes precedence and yibbum should never be performed (since yibbum
might bring the cherem into conflict with Rabbeinu Gershom in the instance of a
married yovom, coupled to a desire not to introduce distinctions between married
and unmarried yovoms). Nevertheless this seems to be disputed by the sources
which indicate that yibbum, even in the case of a married yovom, was considered
a viable legal option in Ashkenaz many generations after Rabbeinu Gershom. This
indicates the acceptance of the taqqonoh and its spread took place slowly.
Mechy Frankel <michaeljfrankel@...>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Joel Rich <JRich@...>
Date: Wed, Aug 15,2012 at 06:01 AM
Subject: Davenning in a loud voice
Martin Stern wrote (MJ 61#12):
> I have noticed that many people get carried away with their tefillot and
> thereby seem ignore this. I have not found a source for this practice but
> perhaps someone can provide the reasoning that might justify such disturbing
> behaviour.
Just wait till the daf gets to 24b in a few weeks:
The following objection was cited: 'One who says the Tefillah so that it can be
heard is of the small of faith; he who raises his voice in praying is of the
false prophets'.
KT
Joel Rich
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From: Elliot Berkovits <eb@...>
Date: Wed, Aug 15,2012 at 06:01 AM
Subject: Davenning in a loud voice
Martin Stern wrote (MJ 61#12):
> In the Shulchan Arukh, Orach Chaim 61,4 it states that "It is the custom
> to say the first verse [of the Shema] aloud so as to arouse proper
> attention [to its meaning]".
> ...
> I have noticed that many people get carried away with their tefillot and
> thereby seem ignore this. I have not found a source for this practice
> but perhaps someone can provide the reasoning that might justify such
> disturbing behaviour.
The well-known Gemarah (Shabbos 119b) praising one who answers Yehei
Shemei Rabba bechol kocho (although only according to Ri in Tosafos,
quoting a Pesikta, does this refer to increased volume, rather than
increased concentration) would seem to corroborate Martin's point, as it
clearly implies that bechol kocho is specific to this phrase and not to
the rest of Davening too .
However, I would suggest that, as long as others are not inconvenienced,
the prerogative is 'Uvilvad Sheyechaven Libo Lashamayim' - to direct
ones concentration heavenward.
After reading Martin's post I am reminded, off on a tangent, of a story
concerning the Chazon Ish, who observed a man who was excessively
enunciating (repeating?) the words of Shema, evidently to fulfil the
Gemarah in Berachos 15b which says 'Kol Hakorei Krias Shema uMedakdek
Be'Osioseha, Metzanenin lo Gehinom' (whoever reads the Shema and is
careful to pronounce the words correctly {apologies for my clumsy
translation} has Hell cooled down for him). According to the story, the
Chazon Ish is alleged to have asked the man: 'Do you want a freezer??'
Eliezer Berkovits
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From: Yisrael Medad <yisrael.medad@...>
Date: Wed, Aug 15,2012 at 08:01 AM
Subject: Davenning in a loud voice
In MJ 61#12, Martin Stern suggests that davenning [Yiddish for supplicating
to the Divine Presence] in a loud voice may be incorrect as is evidenced by the
words of Eliyahu to the Nevi'ei Ba'al [false prophets of the Canaanite deity
Ba'al] at the confrontation on Mount Carmel.
The Halachic basis for praying in a low tone is, of course, Channah at
Shiloh. Source Berachot 31a:-
R. Hamnuna said: How many most important laws can be learnt from these
verses relating to Hannah!...Only her lips moved: from this we learn that
he who prays must frame the words distinctly with his lips. But her voice
could not be heard: from this, it is forbidden to raise one's voice in the
Tefillah.
As for getting carried away with tefillot and ignore the injunction to pray
quietly, Hassidim do not need reasons. They even do sommersaults like Avraham of
Kalisk.
And by the way: there too is the source for the four cubit separation:
Channah says to Eli "I am the woman who stood with you here, praying to
God" (I Samuel 1:26). In fact, it was only Hannah who stood in prayer. Why
did she say "who stood with you", indicating that the high priest was
also standing? The Sages inferred from Hannah's words the proper etiquette
when someone is praying nearby: "It is forbidden to sit within four cubits
(about six feet) of one who is praying" (*Berachot* 31b).
--
Yisrael Medad
Shiloh
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From: Mechy Frankel <michaeljfrankel@...>
Date: Wed, Aug 15,2012 at 01:01 PM
Subject: Facilities in Santa Fe?
I shall be unable to duck an out of town meeting next Friday with the
closest shabbos minyon option seeming to be Santa Fe. That's a town I
usually motor through to somewhere else without stopping. Any shul
convenient hotel recommendations?
Mechy Frankel <michaeljfrankel@...>
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From: Isaac Balbin <isaac@...>
Date: Tue, Aug 14,2012 at 08:01 AM
Subject: Meat after Tisha B'av
Percy Mett (MJ 61#12) wrote:
> Isaac Balbin (MJ 61#11) wrote:
>> The "let's not rush to be happy by eating meat" argument is problematic. If
>> that is indeed the Halacha it would not need to be mentioned for normal Tisha
>> B'Av. Now, I'm happily oblivious about Aveylus, but is there a Din that says
>> the Avel shouldn't eat meat after Shiva?
>
> An ovel may eat meat during the Shiva, so why not after the Shiva?
Absolutely, and since this fast is all about Aveilus and it's already the 11th,
the issue perplexes me. The Sephardim certainly seem to think its OK.
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From: Robert Schoenfeld <frank_james@...>
Date: Wed, Aug 15,2012 at 09:01 AM
Subject: Meat after Tisha B'av
I learned many years ago that because we do not fast more than one day
and because the fires that burnt down the second temple lasted until
about noon the next day we stay in semi-mourning and only eat lightly
until noon on the tenth when we can eat a full seuda
Bob
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From: Harlan Braude <hbraude@...>
Date: Wed, Aug 15,2012 at 08:01 AM
Subject: No Tachanun at a Wedding
In MJ 61#12, Yisrael Medad wrote:
> My reasons: since Tachanun [falling down supplications] is cancelled for a
> happy event such as a brit milah [circumcision] even when the primary
> actors (father, sandak [he-who-holds-the-infant] and the mohel
> [he-who-performs-the-cut] are not even present at the prayer service) although
> there are, of course, other minhagim [customs] ...
The shul I frequent is a sort of mini minyan factory morning, afternoon and
evening. The Rabbi of the shul ruled that only the minyan at which the
participants of the simcha are present is exempted from reciting tachanun. I
don't know the sources he relied upon for his ruling.
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From: Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz <sabbahillel@...>
Date: Sun, Aug 12,2012 at 05:01 PM
Subject: Waiting for the Rabbi
Martin Stern wrote (MJ 61#11):
> Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz wrote (MJ 61#10):
>> I have seen situations in which a rov asks the people not to wait and then the
>> congregation insists on waiting or complaining that the congregation is not
>> waiting ...
> Unless I have misunderstood Hillel, he seems to be referring to a rabbi who
> told the congregation not to wait for him and then complains when they do
> what he told them. That sounds the ultimate in chasing honour - I hope that
> my reading is incorrect and such a situation never occurs.
No, I meant that the rabbi wants the shliach tzibur to continue and
members of the congregation complain when he listens to the rabbi and
continues.
Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz
<SabbaHillel@...>
http://sabbahillel.blogspot.com
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End of Volume 61 Issue 13