Volume 61 Number 75
Produced: Tue, 09 Apr 13 04:38:38 -0400
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Chalav Yisrael (2)
[Orrin Tilevitz Nachum Binyamin Klafter, MD]
Chamets for Israelis on Shabbat if Seventh day of Pesach is Friday (4)
[Leah S. R. Gordon Yisrael Medad Lawrence Myers Menashe Elyashiv]
Chasid/mekubal speaking to men and women with mixed seating? (3)
[Yisrael Medad Katz, Ben M.D. Michael Rogovin]
Frumming
[Yisrael Medad]
Hametz after Pesach
[Menashe Elyashiv]
Kosher mushrooms (2)
[Yisrael Medad Michael Rogovin]
Matza in Nissan
[Robert Schoenfeld]
Metzitzah BePeh
[Katz, Ben M.D.]
Selling Chometz
[Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz]
Spring cleaning
[Menashe Elyashiv]
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From: Orrin Tilevitz <tilevitzo@...>
Date: Sun, Apr 7,2013 at 05:01 PM
Subject: Chalav Yisrael
Sammy Finkelman asks (MJ 61#74):
> Has anyone considered the question if any milk with an Jewish Orthodox
> supervision, like the OU, is, by definition, already, Chalev Yisroel!?
> Or close?>
In theory, the answer is "no" because the standard for chalav yisrael is both
greater and lesser than for kashrut in general. For chalav yisrael, a Jew must
be present when the cows are being milked -- but the Jew may be a minor. For
something to be certified kosher, "yotzei uva"--the supervisor comes and goes at
unpredictable times - -is sufficient in most cases, but I strongly doubt that
any supervisory organization would hire a minor to do this.
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From: Nachum Binyamin Klafter, MD <doctorklafter@...>
Date: Sun, Apr 7,2013 at 09:01 PM
Subject: Chalav Yisrael
Sammy Finkelman wrote (MJ 61#74):
> Has anyone considered the question if any milk with an Jewish Orthodox
> supervision, like the OU, is, by definition, already, Chalev Yisroel!?
> Or close?
Yes, that is precisely the basis to be lenient with milk from large dairies
in industrialized countries where there is reliable government inspection
and enforcement of the laws regulating ingredients. Furthermore, it is very
far fetched to imagine that the milk of non-kosher species would be mixed in
with cow's milk because non-kosher animals do not graze along with cows at
large, modern dairy farms, and cows are milked by automated equipment which
would not even work for non-kosher animals like dogs or pigs.
The most straightforward understanding of the Sages' enactment that we drink
only chalav yisrael is that it was a method of insuring that we will not
unknowingly ingest the milk of non-kosher animals. That is why the
sages (Avoda Zara 35b) allowed "chalav yisrael supervision" by mashgichim who
are merely present on the farm, but are not directly watching each and every
pail that is filled during the milking process. Therefore, both Rabbi Moshe
Feinstein z"l and Rav Soloveitchick have ruled (with similar but not
identical reasoning) that ordinary milk in the USA can be relied upon, and
that inspection by the government is an adequate fulfillment of the Sages'
requirement that we drink only chalav yisrael.
Rabbi Feinstein has several teshuvot on this. The basic principles are
explained in YD 1:47. While it is clear that he rules that ordinary milk in
the USA fulfills the technical, halakhic requirements for chalav yisrael,
Rabbi Feinstein also states in YD 4:5 that it is preferable for people who
have been strict for many years to continue being strict. According to my
understanding of this responsum, I think he implies that there is special
merit in fulfilling the enactment of chalav yisrael in the manner originally
implemented by the sages (i.e., with Jewish mashgichim present on the farm).
I would be curious if those of you who are familiar with this teshuva think
that my understanding is correct.
To my knowledge, Rav Soloveitchick has never stated that there is any reason
in this way for chalav yisrael supervision. This article explains his view:
http://koltorah.org/ravj/13-7%20Chalav%20Yisrael%20-%20Part%201.htm. (It
looks like a good article, but I did not personally study it.)
It is also worth noting that some people (including many Hassidim) are
strict with Chalav Yisrael for mystical reasons, and are therefore they are
uninterested in these technical, halakhic considerations.
Nachum Klafter, MD
Cincinnati OH
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Leah S. R. Gordon <leah@...>
Date: Sun, Apr 7,2013 at 05:01 PM
Subject: Chamets for Israelis on Shabbat if Seventh day of Pesach is Friday
This is a very interesting question, and I have a follow-up:
For Israeli Ashkenazim, am I correct that they could cook kitniyot in their
pesach dishes either during chol-ha-moed or with an eruv-tavshilin on
Friday, and then eat that on the shabbat? With the understanding that
owning, cooking, and contact with kitniyot on one's dishes, are all
theoretically ok.?
--Leah S. R. Gordon
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From: Yisrael Medad <yisrael.medad@...>
Date: Sun, Apr 7,2013 at 06:01 PM
Subject: Chamets for Israelis on Shabbat if Seventh day of Pesach is Friday
David Lee Makowsky asks (MJ 61#74):
> can the Chametz be sold with a "right to use" clause for that Shabbat so that
> Chametz could be eaten on that Shabbat in such a situation [when Pesach finishes
> in Israel on the Friday like in 2015]?
My "without-a-semicha" response is I doubt that and in my life experience
can't think of it occurring. My "poshuta-Yid" response is: that's what the
kitniyot are for.
--
Yisrael Medad
Post Office Box 9407
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From: Lawrence Myers <lawrm@...>
Date: Mon, Apr 8,2013 at 08:01 AM
Subject: Chamets for Israelis on Shabbat if Seventh day of Pesach is Friday
David Lee Makowsky wrote (MJ 61#74):
> I am assuming that (like last year) if the seventh day of Pesach is Friday,
> for those that normally only keep 7 days (those who halachically are
> considered to live in Israel) they must refrain from Chametz on Shabbat
> since the Chametz cannot be bought back before hand.
>
> Is my assumption correct?
>
> If my assumption is correct, can the Chametz be sold with a "right to use"
> clause for that Shabbat so that Chametz could be eaten on that Shabbat in
> such a situation?
Your first assumption is correct. However there is a rule, that whatever is
Muktzeh (not available for any use) during Bein haShmashot (twilight at the
beginning of Shabbat) is Muktzeh for the whole of Shabbat. Since the prohibition
of Chometz lasts until nightfall at the end of 7th day, after Bein haShmashot,
it cannot be used at all on Shabbat.
Lawrence Myers
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Menashe Elyashiv <Menashe.Elyashiv@...>
Date: Mon, Apr 8,2013 at 09:01 AM
Subject: Chamets for Israelis on Shabbat if Seventh day of Pesach is Friday
In MJ 61#74 David Lee Makowsky asked:
> I am assuming that (like last year) if the seventh day of Pesach is Friday,
> for those that normally only keep 7 days (those who halachically are
> considered to live in Israel) they must refrain from Chametz on Shabbat
> since the Chametz cannot be bought back before hand.
If a non-Jew would give you his hametz, without hillul Shabbat, it should
be o.k. However, the sale of hametz is until motzai Shabbat, as the non-Jew does
not return to the Rabbi until then. If there is a Rabbi who would
be willing to sell until Friday night, and I assume that no one would
agree to this, than it maybe o.k.
OTOH, some allow eating legumes and some do not. Last year, we cooked a
feast for our non-kitniot guests for friday night: pea soup, rice, meat
with ful (beans)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Yisrael Medad <yisrael.medad@...>
Date: Sun, Apr 7,2013 at 06:01 PM
Subject: Chasid/mekubal speaking to men and women with mixed seating?
David Ziants asks (MJ 61#74) if there are any comments about an
> amazing thing I found was that he specifically gave a shiur - which
> involved a lot of kabbalistic ideas - in a hotel conference room (rather
> in the shul with a mechitza) where men and women were sitting next to each
> other. In my own Dati Leumi community, almost all shiurim are such that men
> sit at one side and the ladies sit at the other side of the hall. Any
> comments?
>
> (Are there any new trends within the chassidic communities that foster
> Rabbanim such as this? Are the Dati Leumi communities such as mine
> becoming "too frum"?)
My comments:
a. this is not new.
b. yes, some Dati-Leumi communities become "too frum".
--
Yisrael Medad
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Katz, Ben M.D. <BKatz@...>
Date: Mon, Apr 8,2013 at 02:01 PM
Subject: Chasid/mekubal speaking to men and women with mixed seating?
David Ziants wrote (MJ 61#74):
> I have just spent Shabbat Chol Hamoed at a hotel with a mainly Dati Leumi
> crowd.
>
> The "scholar in residence" was Rav Chayim Idels from North Tel Aviv. I had
> no idea who he was beforehand, as I only found out about his position
> through google search this evening (Motzei Shabbat). The first
> impressions I had (without knowing he was from Tel Aviv) was of a
> bestreimelled chasid who was willing to spend (some of) Pesach in Ramat
> Rachel Hotel (mehadrin - no kitniyot but gebrochts) and speak to religious
> people obviously of a different "shape". When he mentioned, in the Friday
> night drasha, of his family connection with the Tzadik Reb Ariye Levine
> tzatzal (if I am not mistaken his wife is a great-grand-daughter), then I
> began to understand where an influence comes from.
>
> The amazing thing I found was that he specifically gave a shiur - which
> involved a lot of kabbalistic ideas - in a hotel conference room (rather
> in the shul with a mechitza) where men and women were sitting next to each
> other. In my own Dati Leumi community, almost all shiurim are such that men
> sit at one side and the ladies sit at the other side of the hall. Any
> comments?
>
> (Are there any new trends within the chassidic communities that foster
> Rabbanim such as this? Are the Dati Leumi communities such as mine
> becoming "too frum"?)
IMHO the answer to your last question is Yes. I see no reason (and in the MO
world of Skokie this is the practice) men and women sit together at shiurim
(except those given at "the yeshivah"). I also see no reason for men and women
to sit separately at a wedding ceremony, although this is becoming a bit less
common - after all, (so far!) there is no mechitzah (yet?) under the chuppah!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Michael Rogovin <mrogovin118@...>
Date: Mon, Apr 8,2013 at 07:01 PM
Subject: Chasid/mekubal speaking to men and women with mixed seating?
In MJ 61#74 David Ziants asks:
> Are the Dati Leumi communities such as mine becoming "too frum"?
Well, I prefer not to be judgmental of others' observances, but I would
respectfully posit "perhaps".
Modern orthodox communities have, over the last several decades, suffered from a
crisis of self-confidence. So while separate seating, with or without a
mechitza, was in the past understood as required for tefilla in a place
regularly used for davening, for shiurim unconnected with davening, even when in
a shul, and certainly when not in a shul, mixed seating was the accepted norm.
In many shuls I've been to, women are invited to sit on the men's side for
shiurim prior to Shabbat mincha (and Kaddish d'rabbonan recited while they are
still there).
We routinely daven without a mechitza in mixed company in catering halls at
weddings, kal v'chomer to listen to a class without tefilla.
But fear of being accused of lack of modesty or lax observance has led to
increasing stringency in areas halacha does not demand such restrictions. So we
see more and more separate seating: at weddings in halls (as opposed to shuls
where it is customary), concerts, lectures, etc.
Another example: why a mechitza at the siyum hashas at MetLife Stadium since the
women were already seated in separate sections and the stadium is not a regular
place of tefilla (and they were high up, not in sight range of the men anyway
from what I could tell).
Hopefully this will not spread to family shabbat meals, though I have certainly
seen that in some hasidic homes.
Kol tuv
Michael Rogovin
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Yisrael Medad <yisrael.medad@...>
Date: Mon, Apr 8,2013 at 06:01 AM
Subject: Frumming
I have seen another example of the frumming phenomenon. In the ultra-orthodox
(haredi) press, female employees do not merit their first names being mentioned.
Even Hilary Clinton was photoshopped out of a picture - And she was
conservatively dressed.
Now, as per here
<http://www.frumsatire.net/2013/04/07/its-now-untznius-to-mention-a-kallahs-name/>,
it seems simcha announcements of engagements of Kollel students ignore the
name of the woman.
--
Yisrael Medad
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Menashe Elyashiv <Menashe.Elyashiv@...>
Date: Mon, Apr 8,2013 at 12:01 PM
Subject: Hametz after Pesach
Last Monday night, Pesah having ended and with Pesah bakeware in the closets, we
made "mufletot" (pancakes?). We used dry flour and yeast, neither of them hametz.
Someone asked: if mixing matza meal with yeast - would it ferment? Or potato
flour with yeast, would it rise or not?
We did once see a pesah roll made from potato flour - out of the oven it tasted
good, but after a few hours it turned as hard as stone.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Yisrael Medad <yisrael.medad@...>
Date: Sun, Apr 7,2013 at 06:01 PM
Subject: Kosher mushrooms
Orrin Tilevitz (MJ 61#74) asks about mushrooms.
As for manure from kosher aninals, I do not not as he hasn't informed us of
the brand. The Tekoa mushrooms, if I am not mistaken, are grown on mats of some
sort.
Chabad notes: "Since bugs are not kosher, you should make sure that your
mushrooms aren't infested with insects before eating them ... If the
mushrooms are canned, you should look for a symbol of kosher certification
on the label, since non-kosher ingredients may have been used during the
process, or the mushrooms may have been on the same production lines as
non-kosher foods. The kosher certification agency also ensures that the
mushrooms are not infested with insects."
But since he specifies that they were fresh, I would tend to agree with the
virtual uselessness, or perhaps, redundancy of the need for a certificate.
--
Yisrael Medad
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Michael Rogovin <mrogovin118@...>
Date: Mon, Apr 8,2013 at 07:01 PM
Subject: Kosher mushrooms
In 61#74, Orrin Tilevitz asks
> Today I bought a package of ordinary, fresh mushrooms and noticed that
> it had OU
> certification. ... could [mushrooms] be non-kosher? Were they perhaps
> pre-washed, like Bodek? (Nothing on the package says so, and they were a
> bit dirty.) Were they perhaps grown on manure from kosher animals?
Mushrooms are almost never washed commercially - they would absorb water
and deteriorate quickly (they are basically sponges and about 90% water as
is). I assume the manure comment was intended as humor, but for those who
wonder, manure can come from any herbivore without affecting the kashrut of
food, just wash it off. It is true that most mushrooms are grown in manure,
though it is supposed to be composted (that is what soil is folks, don't
get so squeamish).
Most likely, the OU symbol refers to
(1) insects - many cultivated and wild mushrooms have an insect infestation
problem, morels in particular can be infested with worms and larvae, or
(2) if some producers use a preservative, the OU certifies that it is kosher,
though I do not believe that any preservative has ever been a kashrut problem on
produce, even shellac which is an insect derivative,* and I don't think
preservatives are used on fresh mushrooms, or
(3) for sliced mushrooms, that the slicer was not used for anything other than
mushrooms or other kosher food, or
(4) it could just be another example of the OU making money from putting their
symbol on things that don't need it, like peaches, plain spring water,
whole grains, dish soap, laundry detergent, and the like.
*N.B. that there is a fruit coating on some apples made from grape juice.
These apples are marketed as grapples and have a distinctive sticker and
price premium; I believe they are not kosher due to stam yayin.
Kol tuv
Michael Rogovin
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Robert Schoenfeld <frank_james@...>
Date: Sun, Apr 7,2013 at 06:01 PM
Subject: Matza in Nissan
A good reason for abstention is that the matzah for Pesach should be from the
winter wheat harvest. To use up the old supply one does not eat matzah for a
short time (15 or 30 days) before making the matzah for Pesach The time
length depended on where they lived
--
Bob
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Katz, Ben M.D. <BKatz@...>
Date: Mon, Apr 8,2013 at 02:01 PM
Subject: Metzitzah BePeh
Steven Oppenheimer wrote (MJ 61#74):
> The defenders of unprotected Metzitzah BePeh claim that the incidence of
> morbidity is almost unheard of.
>
> Even though a thorough analysis was written by Dr. Shlomo Sprecher
> documenting the perils of unprotected MbP (Hakirah Journal - available
> online at Hakirah.org), and even though the CDC has published their
> conclusion that unprotected MbP is dangerous and even though leading
> Infectious Disease experts have strongly advised against the practice of
> unprotected MbP, some organizations have refused to recommend modifying the
> practice by using a short glass tube. Many poskim have allowed and
> advocated the use of a glass tube.
>
> Agudas Yisroel is involved in a lawsuit against the City of NY which passed
> a law requiring informed consent.
>
> Now it is being reported that there are 2 more cases in the last three
> months of herpes transmission to a baby post MbP. The most recent case was
> in March 2013. The baby developed disseminated Herpes Simplex Virus but
> survived. Hopefully there will not be any long term damage to the baby boy.
>
> The family claims they were not given informed consent forms by the mohel.
> This would be contrary to NYC law.
>
> We will see how this will play out. What is the acceptable rate of infant
> morbidity and mortality when doing MbP? Would zero percent be our goal?
>
> See the following:
> http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/news-brief/health-department-child-infected-
> circumcision-defied-nyc-consent-law
The fact that we are still fighting this battle after > 200 years shows one of
the problems with the inherent conservatism of the halachic (Jewish legal)
process. Metzitzah befeh is unsanitary and dangerous. Anyone who defends it in
some misguided attempt to defend tradition or the Talmud is clearly violating
many commandments, such as ushmartem et nafshotaychem (loosely understood as
take care of yourself) or lifnei ivar lo titayn michshol (do not place obstacles
in front of the blind).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz <sabbahillel@...>
Date: Sun, Apr 7,2013 at 05:01 PM
Subject: Selling Chometz
Carl Singer wrote (MJ 61374):
> Now here is my issue / question:
>
> Normally when one engages an agent to do something on their behalf they may
> ask the agent to notify them upon successful completion of the task OR one
> may ask the agent only to notify them in the event of failure.
>
> Given the latter option (notify only in the event of failure.)
>
> So the client should not expect or require any notification regarding step
> #2 above, i.e. the successful sale of the chometz before Pesach.
>
> BUT since this is meant to be a valid purchase (not a sham transaction)
> shouldn't the agent be required to notify the client that the payment was
> not made, that the chometz was repossessed and that the client, again, owns
> the chometz in question?
Most shuls will announce the earliest time for the "repurchase" of the
chametz. Many who become agents will also send out email notices as to the
earliest time that those who appointed them could be able to assume that
the chametz has been repurchased. The way I understand this is that the rav
will meet with the purchaser and either ask for immediate payment or will
repurchase the chametz. The repurchase price will cover the amount owed
plus a small "profit" for the non-Jew.
Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz
<SabbaHillel@...>
http://sabbahillel.blogspot.com
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From: Menashe Elyashiv <Menashe.Elyashiv@...>
Date: Mon, Apr 8,2013 at 09:01 AM
Subject: Spring cleaning
In MJ 61#74 Orrin Tilevitz wrote:
> AFIK, the source for the verse in Lecha Dodi that begins "hitnaari me-afar
> kumi" is Isaiah 52:2, where the trop punctuates it as hitnaari me-afar, kumi.
> You'd translate that as "shake yourself off from the dust, arise". That is not
> how the verse is conventionally sung (except by pedants like me)
Come to our place ... the Yerushalmi tune punctuates it meafar, kumi
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End of Volume 61 Issue 75
