Volume 61 Number 90
Produced: Thu, 25 Jul 13 07:36:45 -0400
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Date of the start of World War I (called the European War at the time)
[Sammy Finkelman]
Extension of Halakha (3)
[Samuel Gamoran Bill Bernstein Yisrael Medad]
Prayer for one's host country and for Israel (8)
[Yitzchak Scott-Thoennes Orrin Tilevitz Keith Bierman Chaim Casper Frank Silbermann Perry Zamek Daniel Cohn Carl Singer]
Waffling (2)
[Rose Landowne Sammy Finkelman]
Welcome Home to the New Olim (and photos)
[Jacob Richman]
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From: Sammy Finkelman <sammy.finkelman@...>
Date: Mon, Jul 22,2013 at 04:01 PM
Subject: Date of the start of World War I (called the European War at the time)
Perets Mett wrote (MJ 61#89):
> Immanuel Burton (MJ 61#88) wrote:
>
>> Over the years I've seen things written about the significance of events
>> that have occurred on 9th Av, such as the outbreak of World War I ...
>
> This is a myth, World War I broke out on 28 July 1914, which was the 5th
> of Av 5674.
That was the date Austria-Hungary declared war on Serbia but that's not
what people mean by the outbreak of World War I. It wasn't World War I yet.
World War I began when Germany declared war on Russia, which was August 1,
1914.
http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F50C17F8385916738DDDAB0894D0405B848DF1D3
"LONDON, Sunday, Aug. 2. -- The news that Germany had declared war against
Russia reached London from St. Petersburg late last evening, only half an
hour after a Central News dispatch from Paris had raised the hopes of all
by the statement that Germany had extended for forty-eight hours, that is,
until Monday noon, the period in which Russia and France could reply to the
German ultimatums."
http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/first-world-war-erupts-in-europe
"Aug 1, 1914: First World War erupts in Europe"
Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I is just being pedantic.
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From: Samuel Gamoran <samuel.gamoran@...>
Date: Mon, Jul 22,2013 at 03:01 PM
Subject: Extension of Halakha
Carl Singer wrote (MJ 61#89):
> I visit my Mother daily at her Jewish nursing home. She's usually in a
> co-ed dining and activities room.
>
> Today when I walked in, there was a girls' choir from a local day school -
> other than a brief hello, I was unable to visit as they seemed in shock
> that a man was present.
>
> Yes, all of the male residents, both Jewish and non-Jewish (there are
> several non-Jews who stay at this nursing home), were not to be found --
> they had been wheeled out of the room.
>
> Apparently the school's leadership has determined that the girls' choir
> may not perform if there are men present.
>
> (1) Possibly this falls under the construct of not putting a stumbling
> block in front of a blind man.
>
> (2) What of the non-Jewish men, may they have remained?
>
> (3) Is there any onus on a woman / girl not to sing if a man may be
> present? Or is the onus strictly on the man.
I think this is far worse than shtus (nonsense) but rather an actual sin of
gneiva (theft), onaah (harassment), or hasagat gvul (infringement) on the
men who normally occupy that room and their guests. Either the girls and
audience should have moved to a separate venue or they should have not sung
or they should have sung irrespective of who was there.
Carl implied that there was no such separate venue (or his mother preferred
attending the concert and seeing him another time) so only the latter two
options would be possible. It might be an unwarranted chumrah but that's
their privilege.
Sam Gee-a-moron! Gamoran
Hashmonaim
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From: Bill Bernstein <billheddy@...>
Date: Mon, Jul 22,2013 at 03:01 PM
Subject: Extension of Halakha
Carl Singer writes (MJ 61#89) about a girls' chorus singing in a
nursing home where all the men, Jewish and non-Jewish, were removed for
the performance. I am not a rabbi but I do live in Nashville TN, "Music
City USA" so am qualified on that basis alone.
Rabbi Frand had a shiur discussing lifnei iver (putting a stumbling block before
the blind) some time ago. One of the points he made was that lifnei iver only
applies if the person about to sin cannot accomplish the act without the help of
the aider. If that is not the case then it still might be a rabbinic prohibition
of mesayeh le'ovrei aveirah (helping sinners to sin). In this case the male
residents could certainly hear women sing if they wanted. So if that is correct
then we are not dealing with an issur midoraysa (Torah prohibition) but a
possible d'rabbonon (rabbinic prohibition). But I imagine the chorus was not
there merely for entertainment but also to boost the spirits of the residents.
That certainly appears worthwhile to me. I doubt the intent or effect was to
entice the male residents to sin in daughters of Midian style. I have never
heard that non Jewish men are bound by the same issur of kol b'isha (women's
voices) as Jewish men. Perhaps the reason was otherwise. Maybe the girls
themselves would have been shy singing in front of men and this was done for
their comfort.
Bill Bernstein
Nashville TN.
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From: Yisrael Medad <yisrael.medad@...>
Date: Tue, Jul 23,2013 at 01:01 AM
Subject: Extension of Halakha
In MJ 61#89, Carl Singer wrote
> the school's leadership has determined that the girls' choir may not perform if
> there are men present.
That happened to us some 25 years ago or more when Rav Shlomo Aviner
prohibited the fathers from attending the graduation ceremony of the girls'
8 grade class at Bet El since they were going to sing and having men in the
audience, he presumed, would embarrass them and make them (the girls) feel
uncomfortable. As I am not aware that he canvassed the girls or even tried
to hold a sensitizing session, needless to say, that was a surprise and a
disappointment.
--
Yisrael Medad
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From: Yitzchak Scott-Thoennes <sthoenna@...>
Date: Mon, Jul 22,2013 at 02:01 PM
Subject: Prayer for one's host country and for Israel
David Lee Makowsky writes (MJ 61#89):
> I have a custom of not standing during the Prayer for the President and
> Vice President because the prayer specifically mentions the political
> office currently occupied by someone I believe is harmful to Jews.
>
> What are the various halachic issues surrounding my actions?
Really? The wording I have usually seen seems designed to be said
fervently even by someone with that belief. I'm curious to know: are there
particular phrases that are objectionable? Thanks.
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From: Orrin Tilevitz <tilevitzo@...>
Date: Mon, Jul 22,2013 at 02:01 PM
Subject: Prayer for one's host country and for Israel
In reply to David Lee Makowsky (MJ 61#89):
IMHO this is a practice, not a "custom", the implication of the latter being
that it has some halachic validity.
The halachic basis of the prayer for the government is the statement that
without the government people would destroy each other, Avot 3:2. As such, the
prayer is for the government, not specifically the president and vice president.
They merely personify the government; unlike in a monarchy, they are not the
government. The notion of praying for the government probably well antedates the
Mishneh.
In addition, I don't know what version of the prayer is said in David's shul --
the Birnbaum version, which my shul uses, deleted the passage praying for the
exaltation (hu yigadel veyiromei veyinasei lemala) of the president and the vice
president, and at my insistence, because of the rather heavy-handed anti-Israel
policies of a prior administration, we no longer refer to them at all, instead
referring only to "kol sarei haaret hazot" -- but the essence of the prayer is
not a blessing for them but merely a plea that government and its leaders will
deal fairly with Jews.
I don't know that there is any requirement, other than the minhag of the shul,
to stand up during this prayer, or for that matter during the prayer for the
state of Israel (which has a good deal less halachic standing, being, shall we
say, of rather recent vintage). But before continuing on this course David
should ask himself several questions, including:
(1) would he be OK with someone sitting down during that prayer if that person
does not approve of Israeli settlement policies or, alternatively, does not
believe that Israel is "reshit tzemichat geulatenu"? and
(2) why would he even want to protest a prayer whose lineage is ancient and
whose essence is not for America's leaders but for the Jews who live here?
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From: Keith Bierman <khbkhb@...>
Date: Mon, Jul 22,2013 at 04:01 PM
Subject: Prayer for one's host country and for Israel
In reply to David Lee Makowsky (MJ 61#89):
Prayers for the government are often worded differently. But, in my
experience, most are worded so as to ask HK"BH to help them act wisely and
treat us well. All the more important when the government is viewed as
against us! I recall asking my grandfather if the family custom had been
to stand in Russia and he observed of course it was. First the Czars and
then the communists ... were clearly against us, so it was all the more
critical to ask for HK"BH's assistance in shaping their actions and
thoughts. Not to mention that informants might be taking names of those who
didn't stand ;<
Keith Bierman
<khbkhb@...>
kbiermank AIM
303 997 2749
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From: Chaim Casper <surfflorist@...>
Date: Mon, Jul 22,2013 at 04:01 PM
Subject: Prayer for one's host country and for Israel
In reply to David Lee Makowsky (MJ 61#89):
1) What is the purpose of prayer if not to ask the Divine to intervene in the
daily lives of humans? We personally pray every day for knowledge, for
forgiveness for sin, livelihood, to root out all heretics, for rain and for
peace. So why would we not pray to ask for His influence over politicians who
we feel are not very positive to Israel?
I personally use the de Sola Pool version of the prayer when I say the t'filah
(prayer) at my synagogue:
"... Please bless the constituted officers of government in this land. Set in
their hearts the spirit of wisdom and understanding to uphold peace, freedom and
morality [and the desire to speak out for the rights of all people" -- this last
clause was added by R` Shlomo Riskin].
The senior rabbi of my synagogue uses the Birnbaum version of the prayer:
"... may He bless and protect, help and exalt the President and Vice-President
and all the officers of this country ... May the supreme King of kings, in his
mercy, inspire them and all their counselors and aides to deal kindly with us
and with all Israel ..."
In both versions, we are not saying we agree with anything that Mr Obama (US),
Mr Cameron (UK), Mr Harper (Canada), Mr Rudd (Australia) or their peers do or
propose. All we are asking is that the Holy One (and I don't mean the pope!)
enable these men who are the leaders and prime movers of their respective
countries to see things from our perspective and act in a positive manner
towards those goals? I personally found comfort in both versions when Ronald
Reagan, George Bush Sr and George Bush Jr were president (heck, I'm a natural
liberal from Massachusetts who voted for both George McGovern and Michael
Dukakis!).
2) As Birnbaum notes in a footnote on the page of his version of the prayer, the
prayer "is based on Jeremiah 29:7 ["Seek the welfare of the country where I have
sent you into exile; pray to the Lord for it, for your welfare depends on its
welfare"] ... Abudraham wrote in the fourteenth century: "It is the custom to
bless the king and to pray to God that he may give him victory." What better
way is there to show support for the country than to ask God to bless the leader
of that country. In fact, the minhag (custom) I have seen in my travels is
that the prayer for the government is in the vernacular (in our case, English)
so that if there were government officials present, they would hear with their
own ears that we are wishing only good things for the head of state, not for his
downfall, certainly a positive perception in those countries and times when we
Jews did not have good relations with the gentile rulers.
Avot 3:2: Rabbi Haninah, the deputy of the kohanim, said, "Pray for the welfare
of the government, for if there was no fear [of the government], a man would
swallow his fellow man alive." Kahati quotes the Bartenura who quotes the
sentence from Jeremiah above and adds that this advice also applies to praying
for a non-Jewish government. Kahati also quotes the Tosafot Yom Tov who
delineates that this prayer is for the "king and his advisors" who lead the country.
Yoma 60a relates that Alexander the Great thought the Jews were rebelling
against him; as punishment, he decided to destroy the Beit HaMikdash. Shimon
HaZaddik personally appealed to Alexander to not destroy the Beit Hamikdash and
that Alexander granted his wish. The MaRHa"Sha, commenting in this gemara,
notes that the proof the Jews were not rebelling against Alexander was that the
Jews were praying for Alexander's success; one does not pray for a government
one wants to rebel against and destroy. Hence, Alexander granted Shimon
HaZaddik's request.
The Arukh haShulkhan (OH 284:15) merely mentions that after the haftorah the
custom is to say Y'kum Purkan, Mi Shebayrakh and "the blessing for the king."
Evidently, he thought of this prayer as so common that his mention of the prayer
required no further elucidation.
B'virkat Torah,
Chaim Casper
North Miami Beach, FL
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From: Frank Silbermann <frank_silbermann@...>
Date: Mon, Jul 22,2013 at 05:01 PM
Subject: Prayer for one's host country and for Israel
In reply to David Lee Makowsky (MJ 61#89):
Without debating your opinion of the President, I would have to say
that"harmful" is relative. Even if you believe many would have been better, I
would have to say that most world leaders' positions are far worse. Certainly,
the President's positions on issues affecting Jews is no worse than that of
Franz Joseph II of the pre-WWI Austrian-Hungarian Empire. A friend showed me a
Hungarian Hebrew-German siddur printed in the late 19th century, and it included
a prayer for the Emperor. I think that it requires far more drastic concerns
than what we have to invalidate"respect for the uniform.
Frank Silbermann Memphis, TN
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From: Perry Zamek <perryza@...>
Date: Tue, Jul 23,2013 at 01:01 AM
Subject: Prayer for one's host country and for Israel
In reply to David Lee Makowsky (MJ 61#89):
I don't know about the halachic implications, apart from the issue of not
conducting oneself different from the Tzibbur (community).
However, I think that David's premise is wrong.
It is necessary to differentiate between the Head of State and the Head of
Government. The Head of State is a symbol of the State itself - in Britain, it
is Her Majesty the Queen, for example. This is in contrast to the Head of
Government - again, in Britain, this would be the Prime Minister, the Rt Hon
David Cameron MP. In Britain, therefore, the prayer for the welfare of the
government refers to the Head of State, the Queen, and not to the specific
government of the day (who are termed "her advisors").
In the United States, the position of President of the United States combines
both roles. However, it is clear that the terms of any prayer for the welfare of
the United States would mention the President and Vice President in terms of
their standing as Head of State and Deputy Head of State, respectively.
That one may agree or disagree with the policies of the government is a given,
but one may not cease to pray for its welfare, for "were it not for the fear of
government, every man would swallow his fellow alive." (And, see, for example,
the Machzorim printed in Czarist Russia, with the prayer for the Royal Family
specifying the Czar Alexander Alexandrovitch, or the Czar Nikolai
Alexandrovitch, "may their glory be exalted." [! - MOD])
Perry Zamek
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From: Daniel Cohn
Date: Tue, Jul 23,2013 at 07:01 AM
Subject: Prayer for one's host country and for Israel
In reply to David Lee Makowsky (MJ 61#89):
Without getting into the content and meaning of the prayer, I believe there
is an obvious kal vachomer (a fortiori argument) from the fact that Jews
over the centuries of galut have always said the prayer even for rabidly
antisemitics kings and rulers. Whatever his political opinions, I don't
think David thinks the current US president is less favorably disposed
toward the Jews than than e.g. Tsar Nicholas II.
Daniel Cohn <4danielcohn@...>
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From: Carl Singer <carl.singer@...>
Date: Thu, Jul 25,2013 at 06:01 AM
Subject: Prayer for one's host country and for Israel
David Makowsky wrote (MJ 61#89):
> Carl Singer wrote (MJ 61#88):
>> I note that many popular siddurs have no prayer for the host country
>> (USA in my case) and none for Israel -- and similarly for the soldiers.
>> Not only the siddurs, obviously, but the davening at many synagogues
>> seem to omit these as well.
> I have a custom of not standing during the Prayer for the President and
> Vice President because the prayer specifically mentions the political
> office currently occupied by someone I believe is harmful to Jews.
> What are the various halachic issues surrounding my actions? Please do
> NOT turn this into a political debate. I am not advocating that anyone else
> do this.
Perhaps unintentionally, but what David Makowsky does during davening --
NOT standing for this prayer -- is similar to what he exhorts us not to do
on this forum - that is he is making a political statement - and during
davening. This while asking us not to have a political debate within this forum.
Over 40 years ago when I served in the Army Chief of Staff's Office I
learned from many wiser than myself that honor is afforded to the incumbent
regardless of one's political views -- the OFFICE of President is an awesome
responsibility. The prayer is for the government of one's host country - it
should be considered apolitical.
The common wording in many Art Scroll Siddurs includes the President, Vice
President *and* all of the duly constituted officers of the nation -- So
does one pick and choose which Senators, Congressman, Judges .... to stand
for -- of course not!
Carl Singer
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From: Rose Landowne <Roselandow@...>
Date: Mon, Jul 22,2013 at 03:01 PM
Subject: Waffling
Orrin Tilevitz wrote (MJ 61#89):
> Then you see (1) a dispenser of waffle batter, with a printed label bearing an
> OU and (2) a waffle iron of the same brand as the waffle batter, so it is
> apparent that they were bought together. The idea is that a patron takes a cup
> of waffle batter and makes his own waffles -- so bishul nochri is not even an
> issue. (There are individual servings of jam, also with an OU.)
You could ask the people in charge whether the waffle iron was new with the
batter set up, and whether it has ever been used for anything else. No reason to
assume they wouldn't tell the truth.
Rose Landowne.
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From: Sammy Finkelman <sammy.finkelman@...>
Date: Mon, Jul 22,2013 at 04:01 PM
Subject: Waffling
In reply to Orrin Tilevitz (MJ 61#89):
What's the problem? Is there some way somebody else could have used something
before?
This is surely just the same thing or even better than a place that makes
coffee.
> Maise shehoyo [it really happened].
> In fact, you may be the only shomer shabbos Jew within 100 miles.
You don't think maybe a Chabad Rabbi set that up?
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From: Jacob Richman <jrichman@...>
Date: Tue, Jul 23,2013 at 09:01 AM
Subject: Welcome Home to the New Olim (and photos)
Hi Everyone!
Congratulations and welcome home to the 231 new olim that
made aliyah to Israel from North America. The NBN aliyah charter
flight arrived in Israel on Tuesday morning.
I took 300 photos of the exciting, historic event and I posted them
online at:
http://www.jr.co.il/pictures/israel/history/2013/a760.htm
I also posted the 300 photos on Facebook for name tagging.
The Facebook album address is:
http://on.fb.me/olim-july23-2013-facebook
If you have a Facebook acccount and you are in the photos or
see someone you know, please feel free to name tag the photos.
May the aliyah from all over of the world grow and bring
more Jews back to their homeland, Eretz Yisrael.
Have a good day,
Jacob
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End of Volume 61 Issue 90
