Volume 62 Number 27
Produced: Fri, 01 Aug 14 09:33:12 -0400
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Boys Meeting Girls | Girls Meeting Boys (3)
[Martin Stern Carl Singer Joseph Kaplan]
Is there an obligation to serve in the Army? (3)
[Susan Kane Daniel Cohn Katz, Ben M.D.]
Kosher Supervision Standards (2)
[Martin Stern Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz]
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From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Tue, Jul 29,2014 at 05:01 AM
Subject: Boys Meeting Girls | Girls Meeting Boys
Carl Singer wrote (MJ 62#26):
> What an absurdity - to go to a simcha with your spouse and essentially drop
> him / her off at the door only to retrieve them for the ride home. Not eating
> together / not speaking together, etc.
Whatever one may think of gender-segregation at simchas, I think it is a bit of
an exaggeration to call it an absurdity. After all, one usually has plenty of
opportunities to converse with one's spouse at home where one normally eats
together, so a simchah can be a chance to talk to other people with whom one's
spouse might have little of common interest, and vice versa. In any case the
excessively loud 'music' makes conversation with anyone virtually impossible so
the seating arrangements are purely academic.
B"H we do not have a car so the problem of return transport is easily solved by
agreeing to do so separately. Usually I get bored by the interminable and
excessively long speeches etc. and simply go home early. In fact I have stopped
washing for the seudah in order not to have the problem of having to bensch with
a zimmun [quorum of 3 or 10] for this very reason.
Martin Stern
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From: Carl Singer <carl.singer@...>
Date: Tue, Jul 29,2014 at 07:01 AM
Subject: Boys Meeting Girls | Girls Meeting Boys
Excerpting a portion of Elliot Berkovits' response (MJ 62#26):
> Curiously enough, I recently found R Moshe Sternbuch discusses the same
> in his Teshuvos VeHanhogos (Vol II, Siman 651, pp. 516-517):
....
> In particular see his conclusion criticising 'various American Rabbonim
> who were lenient in this.'
> I wonder if he was aware of the conduct of the above Gedolim in this issue.
I do not know R. Moshe and cannot / will not speak specifically to his
criticism. Given that he criticized, one must assume he WAS likely aware.
I can state that Torah Judaism has moved to the right and increasingly is
uncomfortable with the standards of Yiddishkeit that were in place only a
generation or two ago. Personally, I do not see this as progress. As
individuals we should always strive toward being "better" whether that means
more learning, more careful observance of mitzvot, etc. This is not synonymous
with what is going on in our communities at large as the "bar" keeps being moved
-- "moved" not necessarily "raised."
Carl
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From: Joseph Kaplan <penkap@...>
Date: Tue, Jul 29,2014 at 09:01 AM
Subject: Boys Meeting Girls | Girls Meeting Boys
Michael Feldstein (MJ62#25) and Eliezer Berkovits (MJ 62#26) tell us about
various gedolim who had mixed seating at their childrens' weddings. Let me
add one more to the list. My father once asked R. Yeruchum Gorelick, who
lived in Radun, whether he had attended the wedding of the daughter of the
Chofetz Chaim to R. Mendel Zaks. He said he had. When asked whether there
was separate seating, Reb Yeruchum answered, in a manner he was well known
for, "O course not; do you think we were as crazy in Europe like you are in
America?"
Joseph Kaplan
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From: Susan Kane <adarconsulting@...>
Date: Tue, Jul 29,2014 at 03:01 PM
Subject: Is there an obligation to serve in the Army?
There are many wonderful things about the US armed forces, but I would
argue that the lack of universal service is not one of them.
Yes, our armed forces are (in general) professional. Yes, they are
well-trained. They are also drawn, in general, from the segment of the
United States population that is too poor to afford college, and who have
received inadequate education through high school. Very few U.S. soldiers
are drawn from the upper or professional class.
Thus, when we enter a prolonged war, such as in Iraq or Afghanistan, in
which thousands of soldiers are killed and tens of thousands are wounded,
almost *none* of the people making these decisions have children or
relatives at risk. They do not feel the war.
Contrast this to Israel and you will see immediately that universal service
changes the equation. The right and the left both serve. Arabs and Jews
both serve. Religious and secular soldiers (generally) serve together and
risk their lives together. It creates an entirely different attitude
towards war, risk, and the meaning of citizenship.
Although I prefer that my stepson be in college, I recognize that someone
else's son might die for the sake of conflicts I have tacitly (through my
citizenship and the democratic process) endorsed. The only difference
between myself and that family is that we have most likely been born into
different economic circumstances. Wouldn't it be better if all citizens
had the same obligations and risks?
Army service is important to most Israelis. It has symbolic value and
implies that the family believes in defending the state and taking their
responsibilities as citizens seriously. It doesn't matter whether the
yeshiva boys would or would not make great soldiers. It is a symbolic
issue and needs to be managed as such.
Susan Kane
Boston, MA
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From: Daniel Cohn
Date: Wed, Jul 30,2014 at 10:01 AM
Subject: Is there an obligation to serve in the Army?
In response to Rabbi Meir Wise (MJ 62#26):
Without getting into all of the issues, I am baffled by the comparison with the
US Army and the calls for a professional army. I have also heard this argument
put by some Haredi MK in Israeli radio. Do the proponents really seek to compare
the US security situation with Israel's? The US neighbors are Mexico and Canada.
Israel's neighbors are Syria, Lebanon/Hezbollah, Gaza/Hamas and the PA. The best
of them - Jordan and Egypt - could any moment fall to Islamic extremists as is
happening in Iraq and almost happened in Egypt under the Muslim Brotherhood.
And Rabbi Wise is telling us now that a professional army of 35,000 soldiers
(working out the percentages as he suggests) can realistically cope with these
threats?
Again, I'm not getting into all the issues now. I just take issue with this
preposterous argument and wonder how intelligent people can seriously present it.
Regards,
Daniel Cohn
Raanana, Israel
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From: Katz, Ben M.D. <BKatz@...>
Date: Thu, Jul 31,2014 at 04:01 PM
Subject: Is there an obligation to serve in the Army?
I almost don't know where to start rebutting Rabbi Wise's comments (MJ 62#26),
but was afraid not to respond lest he interpret shtikah kehoda-ah (silence is
acquiescence).
Rabbi Meir Wise stated, in response to Bill Bernstein (MJ 62#25):
> Your correspondent seems to have forgotten that nearly all countries,
> including the UK exempted theological students even during World War Two.
"Theological students" is not everyone sitting in a yeshivah. Also, the
percentages are enormous. R Wise is fond of percentages (see below); I doubt a
country of 8,000,000 needs 50,000 rabbis at any given time.
> The reality is that the IDF Chief of Staff has said that he doesn't
> want
> 20,000 yeshiva boys to turn up. He doesn't have the budget for them
> whilst he is cancelling planned airforce training manoeuvres and not
> calling reservists for training (this was before the present crisis).
This is hearsay. It requires documentation.
> I have nephews in the army who tell me that the waste is incredible.
> They throw out year old computers in order to get new ones to use the
> budget allotted. I saw this in the metropolitan police in London. Many state
> organisations do this. There are no checks.
All organizations unfortunately have some waste, and all could do better. I
doubt manpower is being wasted however (see below).
> It's high time that Israel had a professional army like the US whom it
> wants to ape in every other sphere.
Israel's army is the best in the world in terms of pilots, training, etc.
because it is a people's army, and is much better educated than the current US army.
> King David was an excellent warrior as well as a psalmist. For every
> soldier he had at the front, he had a Torah scholar at the back.
> According to this we need more yeshiva boys not less!
This is complete midrash and obviously impossible to refute. Suffice it to say
that not a single pasuk in Tanach describing all of David's battles says
anything remotely like this,
> Below you will find quotes from major Gedolim, including Rav Kook, Rav
> Herzog and others who opposed drafting yeshiva students.
Yes, 400 maybe in Ben Gurion's time, not 50 or 60,000! Every country sets aside
scholarships and fellowships for truly gifted humanities scholars. I think
5,000 talmeiday chachamim paid to learn and publish seforim may be a reasonable
number, not the bloated numbers we have today.
> As of 31 December 2013, 1,369,532 people were on active duty in the
> armed forces. As of 31 December 2010, U.S. armed forces were
> stationed in 150 of the world's 192 countries. Population 309,000,000.
>
> Israel 7.9,000,000.
> Military of Israel:
> Active personnel 176,500.
> Reserve personnel 445,000.
> You can work out the percentages!
This is a comparison without meaning. During WWII when we were under attack and
the population of the US was 1/2 what it is now (< 150,000,000) there were about
16,000,000 people in uniform.
> The National Service (Armed Forces) Act 1939 was enacted immediately
> by the Parliament of the United Kingdom on the day the United Kingdom
> declared war on Germany on 3 September 1939, at the start of the
> Second World War. It superseded the Military Training Act 1939 passed
> in May that year, and enforced full conscription on all males between 18 and
> 41 resident in the UK. It was continued in a modified form in peacetime by the
> National Service Act 1948. By 1942, all male British subjects between 18 and
> 51 years old, as well as all females 20 to 30 years old resident in Britain,
> were liable to be called. Only a few categories were exempted:
> British subjects from outside Britain and the Isle of Man who had
> lived in the country for less than two years, Northern Ireland Students,
> Persons employed by the government of any country of the British
> Empire except the United Kingdom, Clergy and theological students of
> any denomination, Those who were blind or had mental disorders, Married
> women, Women who had one or more children 14 years old or younger
> living with them. This included their own children, legitimate or
> illegitimate, stepchildren, and adopted children, as long as the child was
> adopted before 18 December 1941.
> Pregnant women were theoretically liable to be called up but in
> practice were not called up.
> The Talmud, Makkot 10a, states "R. Yehoshua b. Levi said: What is the
> meaning of the [Psalmists] words, Our feet stood within your gates, O
> Jerusalem (Psalms 122:2)? What helped us to maintain our firm foothold
> in war? The gates of Jerusalem - the place where students engaged in the
study of Torah!
If there is no army to defend the country there won't be any place in
Yerushalayim God forbid to study Torah! The Rambam says anyone who learns Torah
on the dole loses his share in the world to come. Finally, there is the pikuach
nefesh argument - how can single, able bodied boys sit and learn while many
older men with families are called up to reserve duty!
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From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Tue, Jul 29,2014 at 05:01 AM
Subject: Kosher Supervision Standards
Orrin Tilevitz wrote (MJ 62#26):
> I was forwarded the following (redacted) email, from someone who is looking
> for supervision for a new chain of restaurants. I am curious about the List's
> reaction:
>
> "I connected with ______ again from _______ today. He is super nice and will
> be very easy to work with. Below are some bullet points we discussed. Please
> ask your orthodox friends if there is a different Kosher certification
> organization they prefer, otherwise I will proceed with ____.
>
> - All vegan foods are kosher by their nature
>
> - We can serve wine. They do not need to be kosher because we drink them, not
> cook with them
>
> - We don't need ingredients to be kosher
>
> - Used equipment and or pots and pans are fine you just "kosherize" them by
> turning up the heat to kill anything or clean them well.
>
> - Vegetables and fruits need to be washed well. 2X with a little salt in the
> water to get rid of bugs. So they recommend using a basin or tub to really
> soak and rinse.
>
> - To start he needs a VERY general list of ingredients such as all purpose
> flour, lentils, fresh fruits and vegetable, etc.
>
> In a couple of weeks I can arrange to meet him at our ice cream co-packers and
> he can see how they are cleaning the ice cream maker. He is quite confident
> that there will not be an issue."
I would not be prepared to accept the kashrut of food produced under this
sort of supervsion for various reasons:
1. There is a problem of bishul akum [foods cooked by non-Jews without
Jewish participation] even for vegan foodstuffs so it is not correct that
all of them are "kosher by their nature"
2. The fact that one does not use wine for cooking does not permit the
provision of non-kosher wine for drinking because of lifnei iver [misleading
the unsuspecting who rely on the supervision for all food served]
3. If non-kosher ingredients are used in significant quantities, the
resulting food will be non-kosher on the Biblical level. If the quantity is
so small that bittul [annulment] would apply there would still be rabbinic
prohibition of 'ein mevatlim issur lechtchilah [one may not rely on bitul to
annul items intentionally added]"
4. If the ice cream production involves cooking ingredients at some stage
then there would be a problem of bliyot [absorbed taste from non-kosher
production runs] in the equipment and mere washing would not suffice.
While one might be able to overlook these problems in extreme situations
such as being stranded in a place where reliably kosher food is completely
unavailable (our more erudite rabbinic members might like to elaborate on this),
this would not apply to catering for the Jewish public in general.
Martin Stern
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From: Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz <sabbahillel@...>
Date: Wed, Jul 30,2014 at 06:01 AM
Subject: Kosher Supervision Standards
Orrin Tilevitz wrote (MJ 62#26):
> I was forwarded the following (redacted) email, from someone who is looking
> for supervision for a new chain of restaurants. I am curious about the List's
> reaction:
>
> "I connected with ______ again from _______ today. He is super nice and will
> be very easy to work with. Below are some bullet points we discussed. Please
> ask your orthodox friends if there is a different Kosher certification
> organization they prefer, otherwise I will proceed with ____.
>
> - All vegan foods are kosher by their nature
Who knows what additives can be put into them and still be called "vegan". This
is not true unless someone who keeps kosher and can be trusted has checked them
out. Besides, as far as I know we do not import food from the star system Vega.
Thus, no food grown on this planet can be called "Vegan" (:-)
> - We can serve wine. They do not need to be kosher because we drink them, not
> cook with them
The whole point of kosher wine is that someone is not allowed to drink
non-kosher wine as well as not put it into food. Unless he means that the
waiters and cooks drink it. In which case, the customers never get it to begin
with. This is an idiotic statement.
> - We don't need ingredients to be kosher
This is an obvious falsehood.
> - Used equipment and or pots and pans are fine you just "kosherize" them by
> turning up the heat to kill anything or clean them well.
Making utensils kosher is not a matter of killing germs. I would not trust
someone like this to even clean utensils adequately, much less make them kosher.
> - Vegetables and fruits need to be washed well. 2X with a little salt in the
> water to get rid of bugs. So they recommend using a basin or tub to really
> soak and rinse.
OK but based on the other statements, I would not trust them to actually do this.
> - To start he needs a VERY general list of ingredients such as all purpose
> flour, lentils, fresh fruits and vegetable, etc.
Anyone who actually deals with kashrus knows that he needs a detailed
examination of everything brought in to the place and has to check that it is
indeed kosher. It is like trusting a "plain k" without knowing who is really
backing up the statement. No legitimate kashrus organization would say something
like this.
> In a couple of weeks I can arrange to meet him at our ice cream co-packers and
> he can see how they are cleaning the ice cream maker. He is quite confident
> that there will not be an issue."
Based on the above, I am sure that he can be confident that he will not find
anything wrong. After all, he will not see anything marked "NOT Kosher" on the
label.
Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz
<SabbaHillel@...>
http://sabbahillel.blogspot.com
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End of Volume 62 Issue 27
