Volume 65 Number 96
Produced: Tue, 11 Oct 22 15:49:23 -0400
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Areshet sefateinu (was Minhagei ta'ut?)
[Perets Mett]
Eating at other people's homes (5)
[David Ziants Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz Avraham Friedenberg Mark Goldenberg Prof. L. Levine]
Eivah/Shalom
[Joel Rich]
Minhagei ta'ut?
[Joseph Kaplan]
Nusach question re YK mincha
[Martin Stern]
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From: Perets Mett <pmett99@...>
Date: Sun, Oct 9,2022 at 07:17 AM
Subject: Areshet sefateinu (was Minhagei ta'ut?)
Martin Stern wrote (MJ 65#92):
> In the Altona machzor, it has "kol teru'ateinu" after the malkhiyot and "kol
> teki'ateinu" after the zikhronot and shofarot.
Daniel Goldschmidt in the introduction to his edition of the Machzor for Rosh
Hashanah (p. 48) writes:
"The communities of West Germany were especially particular to say after the
malchiyot "ma'azin umakshiv seder teru'ateinu" but after the zichronot and
shofarot "ma'azin umakshiv seder teki'ateinu" in order to emphasise that the
tashrat blasts (according to the West German custom [to blow tashrat after
malchiyot, tashat after zichronot, and tarat after shofarot - a total of ten
blasts] must include a [correct] terua' whereas there is a doubt regarding the
terua' in tashat and tarat".
Perets Mett
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From: David Ziants <dziants@...>
Date: Sat, Oct 8,2022 at 06:17 PM
Subject: Eating at other people's homes
Joel Rich wrote (MJ 65#94) asking about eating at homes of other people
in one's community - I presume we are talking about the case where all Torah
observant, but some may have different standards of kashrut or follow certain
stringencies while others do not. [I think he was asking about a rav of a shul
or kehillah rather than a private individual - MOD]
I think the subject was already brought up a few years ago on MJ - and I then
mentioned that Rav Eliezer Melamed wrote a serious of articles at that time in
the B'Sheva weekly newspaper concerning this. I do not have the links to these
articles off hand - but this is summarised in his halachic work P'ninai
haHalacha (in Hebrew):
https://ph.yhb.org.il/17-38-01/
and
https://ph.yhb.org.il/17-38-08/
(and other sections of chapter 17-38 might give some background to section 8).
The bottom line, is that where it is an issue of "stringency", for example an
Ashkenazi eating glatt [chalak], one should be flexible when eating somewhere
else. If it is an issue of following a minhag nechretz [a custom well entrenched
in one's family tradition and which is well known, so is understood by the host]
then there should be less of an issue of causing discomfort when requesting to
take this into account in the menu (e.g basar chalak for Sefardim or no kitniyot
for Ashkenazim on Pesach).
He brings a few examples - and I realise there might be disagreement on some of
his examples concerning some of the nuances - so I won't try and translate or
summarise any more than what I have already mentioned - as this is beyond my depth.
https://ph.yhb.org.il/17-38-09/
talks about eating in a mesorati [traditional] household - the definition of
which he gives there. The bottom line there is that one needs to ask specific
questions on the kashrut standard in such a house before eating with such a
person/family.
David Ziants
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From: Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz <sabbahillel@...>
Date: Sat, Oct 8,2022 at 10:17 PM
Subject: Eating at other people's homes
Martin Stern wrote MJ 65#95):
> Joel Rich wrote (MJ 65#94):
>
>> What is your pulpit rabbis policy concerning eating at his parishioners' homes?
>> What halachic considerations should go into such a policy?
>
> I don't know any halachic considerations per se but it would seem best to either
> eat in all or in none of his parishioners' homes. To eat in some and not in
> others will almost certainly lead to friction.
That is what several rabbonim explained as why they did not eat at congregant's
homes, even when there was no halachic difficulty. One rav took on himself to
eat only Bais Yosef Shechita in order to avoid this problem. He even did not eat
at restaurants for which he was Rav Hamachsir in order to avoid situations that
might arise.
Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz
<SabbaHillel@...>
http://sabbahillel.blogspot.com
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From: Avraham Friedenberg <elshpen@...>
Date: Sun, Oct 9,2022 at 03:17 AM
Subject: Eating at other people's homes
In response to Joel Rich (MJ 65#94):
In the shul in which I grew up, our Rav had a rule that he and the Rebbetzin did
not eat out except at the homes of relatives. Since they had no relatives
nearby, they didn't eat out.
The Rav of my next shul would eat out, but only at the homes of those who were
not members of his shul.
Finally, here in Israel, our Rav and Rabbanit do eat out, at least in some
homes. They have joined us for some lovely Shabbat meals in our home, as well as
for sheva brachot for our daughter and son-in-law.
Avraham (Alan) Friedenberg
Beersheva, Israel
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From: Mark Goldenberg <GOLDDDS@...>
Date: Sun, Oct 9,2022 at 01:17 PM
Subject: Eating at other people's homes
In response to Joel Rich (MJ 65#94):
When our Rabbi assumed the position 35 years ago, he announced he would not eat
in anyone's home unless it was catered or delivered by a kosher restaurant or
caterer. He would also come for dessert if he was invited. With those
guidelines, if you wanted to invite the Rabbi, you could conveniently do so. And
that way, he didn't have to pick and choose or insult any family if invited. It
has worked well all these years.
Mark Goldenberg
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From: Prof. L. Levine <llevine@...>
Date: Sun, Oct 9,2022 at 04:17 PM
Subject: Eating at other people's homes
R Joseph Kaplan wrote (MJ 65#95):
> My former rabbi's position (he's recently retired) on eating in other peoples
> homes (MJ 65#94) was relatively simple. He believed that all the members in
> the shul had a chezkat kashrut [Presumption that they conduct their affairs
> in a halachicly correct manner - MOD]] and thus he ate in all members' homes
> if they invited him. I don't know what he did about others. I'm sure he had
> personal standards of kashrut he followed in his own home but he didn't make
> that a requirement for what he ate elsewhere. So he never asked anyone what
> they personally did if he believed they kept kosher.
While one may hold that all the members in the shul have a chezkat kashrut, this
does not mean that everyone has the same kashrus standards. There are many
hashgachas, and they do not have the same standards. I personally rely on the OU
and 3 heimishe hashgachas only. I know that most people do not do what I do
regarding kashrus, and that is certainly their prerogative. They may indeed
have a "chezkat kashrut", but it is not the same as my personal standards, so I
do not eat in other people's homes.
He also wrote:
> I would add that many years ago I heard a well know MO rabbi, thinker, and
> scholar speak about this briefly. His bottom line (close to an exact quote but
> not quite - it was many years ago) was: the purpose of kashrut is for Jews to
> eat together not to see how many houses of Jews you can't eat in.
>
> I've let that last line be a guide for me.
I think that there are other purposes of kashrus than what this MO rabbi stated.
For some these may outweigh his assertion about Jews eating together.
Professor Yitzchok Levine
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From: Joel Rich <joelirarich@...>
Date: Sun, Oct 9,2022 at 02:17 PM
Subject: Eivah/Shalom
Further to my previous submission (MJ 65#94):
Without looking them up, which of these do others think qualify under eiva and
which under darkei shalom with regard to non-Jews and why?:
Assisting in unloading their animal
Giving a eulogy or burying the dead
Acting as a midwife
Allowing them to have our agricultural gifts (e.g. peah)
Accepting a gift from an official
Feeding their poor or treating their ill
GT
Joel Rich
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From: Joseph Kaplan <penkap@...>
Date: Mon, Oct 3,2022 at 01:17 PM
Subject: Minhagei ta'ut?
Martin Stern (MJ 65#94) replied to my post about piyyutim on RH/YK:
> The problem with "the way the vast majority of Orthodox shuls recite the
> piyuttim" is that, as Michael Rogovin points out (MJ 65#93)
>
>> it prioritizes the niggun over the meaning of the words
>
> Those of us who stem from Germany and surrounding lands have a tradition to
> say or sing them in a manner that preserves their meaning and we take great
> offence when visiting 'chazanim' use tunes that distort the way our
> ancestors wrote them. As far as we are concerned what they are doing is NOT
> following the way minhag yisrael has dictated.
I certainly agree with Martin that if a shul follows the minhag to recite the
piyyutim in a certain manner, then visiting chazzanim have an obligation to
follow that minhag. (I assume those have been advised beforehand about the
minhag. If not, then the shul leadership must assume part of the blame as well.)
And if those chazzanim don't follow the minhag then the members of that shul
have every right to take great offense (and, I trust, not invite those guests
back to lead the services). But in a shul which has been reciting piyyutim,
under the guidance of its rabbanim and leadership, in a different manner for
many years, then if a chazzan decides to do it differently which, as Michael
pointed out, sometimes causes confusion among the congregants, then, I submit,
those congregants also have good reason to take offense (I'll drop great).
But my point was and is not about taking offense. Its really about being a bit
more modest in being so sure that one's way/minhag is absolutely the right and
only way to do something "even if the text seems to support that method. And so,
while I use minhag ta'ut as the subject of my posts on this topic because that's
how the first one appeared, I'm quite frankly not comfortable with the word
ta'ut "error. I don't concede it's an error, and I think those calling it that
should, while certainly continue saying these prayers as their ancestors did, be
a bit more gentle in their language and attitude towards those "including many
great rabbanim and talmedei chachamim " who acted and act differently.
Joseph
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From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Fri, Oct 7,2022 at 12:17 PM
Subject: Nusach question re YK mincha
Leah S. R. Gordon wrote (MJ 65#95):
> At my shul, with knowledgeable Torah readers who I assume do what they're
> supposed to, mincha YK Torah reading sounds to my ear like "regular" Torah
> cantillation instead of "High Holiday" cantillation. Is that right, and if so,
> why the difference?
That is the usual practice but I am not sure what is the reason.
I seem to remember hearing that the difference between the morning and afternoon
readings is that the morning one is because YK is a Yom Tov, whereas the
afternoon one is because YK is a ta'anit tzibbur. I don't remember hearing a
linkage of this with the cantillation style but it is possibly connected.
In the shul I attended, they even read maftir in the morning with the regular
cantillation which I had not heard previously. This seems to have been the
minhag in Copenhagen.
Martin Stern
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End of Volume 65 Issue 96