Volume 13 Number 62
Produced: Thu Jun 16 6:54:52 1994
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
"Cholov Stam" humrot and kulot
[Mark Steiner]
Chalav Yisroel
[Harry Weiss]
Christian America
[Barry Freundel]
New Halacha mailing list
[Naftoli Biber]
Orthdox Roundtable Paper on Smoking
[Jeffrey Woolf]
Passive Smoking and Halacha
[Lawton Cooper]
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From: Mark Steiner <MARKSA@...>
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 1994 03:05:25 -0400
Subject: "Cholov Stam" humrot and kulot
Questions concerning milk continue to plague the (American) readers
of mail-jewish, the primary one being whether R. Moshe z"l's lenient
ruling was a "heter" or "kula" or whether the supervision of milk in the
U. S. today is sufficient to permit the drinking of what is called
"cholov stam" (a misnomer, not only because the expression should be
stam cholov, but because we are speaking only of milk produced by large
companies) without the use of heterim.
Readers may not be aware that R. Moshe's was by no means the only
lenient opinion. The Hazon Ish z"l, not known to be a "meikil,"
concurred with R. Moshe's opinion. Cf. Hazon Ish, Y.D. 40 and 41,
especially 41 section 4. The Hatham Sofer, Y.D. 107, though, forbade
the use of gentile milk even if it was absolutely known to be kosher.
Essentially, the issue between the Hatham Sofer and Hazon Ish is
precisely that debated in mail-jewish (all should say borukh shekivnonu
[no this is not a misprint]): whether milk known to be kosher needs a
heter or not. (You might say that this is a "second order" machlokes.)
The Hatham Sofer holds that once a decree on gentile milk has been
adopted, the milk takes on the status of a nonkosher substance, even if
the reason for the decree does not apply.
The Hazon Ish explains his view quite brilliantly in Y. D. 40:
there are two kinds of rabbinic decrees. One is that we forbid X lest
people come to do Y. Such decrees cannot be abrogated except by a new
decree, not by changing circumstances. The other is a decree to forbid
substances for which there is a small probability that they are
nonkosher. Such substances would be permitted if not for the decree,
because we go according to the majority of cases (rov) and we are
permitted to ignore unusual cases. Given the decree, however, they are
forbidden. The decree is: to take account (hoshesh) of the possibility
that the substance is not kosher. In the case of milk, we take account
of this possibility by watching the milking (and in some cases it is
enough for the mashgiach to be able to watch the milking if he stood up,
etc.) to make sure only kosher milk is used. Where there is government
supervision and penalties applied for violaters, says the Hazon Ish, one
can say that the decree has been lived up to--we HAVE taken account
(hoshesh) for the possibility that the milk is not cow's milk and
eliminated it by government supervision!
We see that the issue between the Hazon Ish and Hatham Sofer is not
a simple question of humra vs. kula, but a differing analysis of the
nature of rabbinic decrees (possibly R. Hayyim Brisker would say the
dispute is whether cholov yisroel is a decree concerning the "gavra"
[man] or the "heftza" [thing]).
As to whether drinking J&J rather than Dellwood (assuming those
companies still exist in America) brings one closer to the Almighty, I
recommend learning through the sugya and the two Chapters of Hazon Ish,
an act which will purify the soul much more than drinking any product.
Mark Steiner
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From: <harry.weiss@...> (Harry Weiss)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 94 23:04:25
Subject: Chalav Yisroel
There has been a considerable amount of discussion of Chalav Yisroel in
the past few weeks on MJ. I felt that it is time to put my two cents
worth in. (It may not be worth that much.)
The thing that bothered me the most in the recent postings was a
statement that Hashem liked if better if we used Chalav Yisroel. I feel
that is not correct. Hashem commanded us to only use Kosher milk.
There may be differences in approach and requirements as to how we
insure that the milk is Kosher. In the end, the milk either is Kosher
or not Kosher. This is known by Hashem with absolute certainty.
Even those groups who are very strict regarding Chalav Yisroel such as
Lubavitch do not hold Chalav Yisroel to be like Gvina and Pas. Both
cheese and baked goods require a Jew to participate in the making of the
baked goods or cheese. (The cheese requirements are absolute for hard
cheeses. Pas is not absolute and many do rely on Pas Palter (baked
goods made by a non Jew), except for the Yomim Noraim (High Holiday)
period. Lubavtich eats only Pas Yisroel year round.) The Chalav
Yisroel issue is one of supervision.
Everyone including the Igrot Moshe Pskei Halacha hold that Chalav Akum
is prohibited. The first Igrot Moshe Psak on company milk (Sivan 5712)
> explains that knowledge is equivalent to seeing and therefore company
milk is not Chalav Akum. Others do not accept that determination and
require a reliable Mashgiach to actually see production. The Rav Moshe
preference for Chalav Yisroel in the first Tshuvah appears to be based
more on the individual than the availability.
In Rav Moshe's Tshuvah of 5730 (Igrot Moshe Yoreh Deah Chelek B) where
he says a Yeshivah Ktanah (elementary school) should buy Chalav Yisroel
despite financial hardship on the Yeshivah explains the necessity of the
Yeshivah teaching the children the importance of removing any suspicion.
The people who hold by Chalav Yisroel hold the only way to remove any
suspicion of non Kosher milk is with a reliable Mashgiach. Those who
rely on company milk rely on the US Government which includes items such
as temperature recorders that can only be opened by the USDA inspector.
Obviously there is a theoretical possibility of error or fraud. This
could happen whether or not the milk had a Chalav Yisroel Hashgacha.
Though I have never heard of non Kosher milk in the US, we all know
numerous cases of other certified products that were not kosher for
various reasons.
I have been told by an individual who worked as a Mashgiach for a major
Hashgacha organization that he was assigned to review the milking at
three facilities for Chalav Yisroel purposes. Appropriate Hasgacha
requires the Mashgiach to verify that the containers were empty prior to
the milking and that the containers were appropriately sealed after
conclusion. Since all the dairies began milking at approximately the
same time, there was no way he could physically be at three different
geographical locations at one time. When he called the agency he was
told not to be concerned.
A more appropriate explanation to a child would be that they are taking
extra steps to be absolutely positively sure that Hashem's will is being
met.
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From: <Dialectic@...> (Barry Freundel)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 1994 00:29:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Christian America
To Ira Rosen:
Its hard for me to fathom why Jews fight the last fight rather than the
present one. MOST though not all of the politically active evangelists have
at least publically adopted the veiw that Jews will convert at the Second
Coming. If the Second Coming happens we will all have significantly bigger
problems than Pat Robertson. I can live with someone who will convert me when
Jesus comes again as I treat the probability of such an occurence as a
negative number.
On the other hand lets look at the left. On all the following issues they are
at odds with Halachah or Jewish interests or both
1) Israel (far more anti-Israel sentiment on the left than on the right)
2) anti-semitism its not even close as to who is worse
3) anti-family attitudes and legislation. everything from gay rights to
domestic partnership acts to the marriage tax is a left phenomenon
4) condom based sex education and zero funding of abstinence education
5) Quotas. Most pernicious is the Clinton health plan which mandates a
medical health care force that looks like America.
We lose two ways 1- worse health care because we are not getting the best to
serve 2-Less access for Jewish Medical students and Doctors
6) Political correctness-just ask Eden Jacobowitz of the University of
Pennsylvania. (by the way Sheldon Hackney the President of the Univ. of Pa,
who acted so shamefully now lives across the street from me safely ensconced
as head of the NEH an appointment he received for his exemplory service). I
talk to Orthodox kids on campus all the time who basically serve there time
in University never discussing Torah veiws of contemporary issues for fear of
falling prey to the pc police. All this is again a product of the left.
I could go on but the point is that stacked against this is historical memory
and the fear of prayer in public schools (which many Important Rabbinic
authorities have endorsed). I'd rather side with the Christian right. It is
not a permanent marriage, but as long as it is so clearly in our interest
lets be with our allies not our enemies.
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From: Naftoli Biber <bibern@...>
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 1994 15:34:26
Subject: New Halacha mailing list
"Issues in Practical Halacha" (prac-halacha) is a new moderated list
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From: Jeffrey Woolf <F12043@...>
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 1994 08:11:06 -0400
Subject: Orthdox Roundtable Paper on Smoking
The Orthdox Roundtable Paper on Smoking is available on E-Mail from
Compuserve Religion Forum Archives or on Keshernet. I will try to upload
it to Mail Jewish but am having trouble doing it to the Bar Ilan
computer with my software.
[If anyone does retrieve it and send it to me, I will put it up on the
archive area on Nysernet. Mod.]
Anyone interested in obtaining a hardcopy of the paper may either
write to the Roundtable consultant, Rabbi Adam Mintz (AQM4518@NYUACF)
and request a copy or they may contact our office: ORTHODOX ROUNDTABLE
3228 Arlington Avenue Riverdale, NY 10463 Tel. 718-601-8375.
Thank you all for your interest. Also if anyone is interested in
receiving Roundtable publications in the future, this may be arranged by
contacting the above places. Jeffrey R Woolf
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From: <Lawton_Cooper@...> (Lawton Cooper)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 94 15:25:26 EDT
Subject: Passive Smoking and Halacha
My experience as a cardiovascular epidemiologist and family physician
prompts me to respond to a comment made a while ago on m.j. about
passive smoking (i.e., exposure to other people's cigarette smoke). The
comment indicated skepticism about the dangers of passive smoking, and
therefore whether there might be a Halachic problem with exposing others
to one's cigarette smoke, assuming it is permissible to endanger one's
own life and health.
A number of epidemiologic studies have made it clear:
PASSIVE SMOKING IS NOT BENIGN!
To briefly summarize, non-smokers exposed to cigarette smoke (usually at
home or work), when compared with non-smokers without such exposure,
have an increased likelihood of:
1) Death (estimated 53,000 deaths per year in the U.S., 37,000 from
heart disease), including sudden infant death syndrome
2) Lower respiratory infections (bronchitis, pneumonia); up to
300,000 U.S. cases per year in children under 18 months of age alone
3) Upper respiratory tract irritation and middle ear fluid in children
4) Asthma or worsening of asthma symptoms (mostly in children)
5) Reduced lung function in children
6) Lung cancer (this has special poignancy for me, since one of my great
grandmothers, A'H, died from lung cancer almost certainly caused by
prolonged exposure to cigarette smoking by close family members)
7) Heart disease, including heart attack
8) Small birth weight (if mother exposed to smoke)
9) Miscarriage, stillbirth, early neonatal death, small birth weight,
reduced childhood growth, lower educational achievement (if mother
smokes while pregnant)
10) Cancer of the cervix
(See the New England Journal of Medicine, Vol.330, No.13 (March 31,
1994, pages 907-912, which includes references for the above findings.)
These facts have affected the public consciousness in the United States,
where even inveterate smokers will often step outside their own homes
(even in winter) or at least lean out a window, to avoid exposing their
family members, especially children, to the poison.
According to those Halachic authorities who permit cigarette smoking on
the grounds that the danger is not clearly immediate (though the damage
to one's respiratory tract certainly is), can it be Mutar (permissible)
to knowingly expose others to the above risks, including young children
who cannot avoid the smoke?
I would like to hear about any recent Teshuvas (responsa) on this
subject, especially if they are based on current medical knowledge
about the risks of passive smoking.
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End of Volume 13 Issue 62
