Volume 18 Number 31
Produced: Mon Feb 6 0:33:25 1995
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
_Rabbi_ Ploni (2)
[Meylekh Viswanath, Avi Feldblum]
Female participation
[Zvi Weiss]
Feminism and Halakha
[Eliyahu Teitz]
Gays and others at YU
[George Max Saiger]
Motivation, etc.
[Larry Israel]
Permitted Aveira (Sin) ?
[Chaim Stern]
Premeditated / Desire and Mikva Story
[Jeremy Nussbaum]
YU and Homosexual Clubs; Lashon Hara and the Media
[Warren Burstein]
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From: Meylekh Viswanath <PVISWANA@...>
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 1995 10:21:40 EST5EDT
Subject: Re: _Rabbi_ Ploni
If a poster makes a point about matters of physics, I believe that it is
appropriate, though not necessary, for him to give us his credentials in
Physics. If a lawyer asserts something about the law, I think it is
appropriate for him to present his legal credentials. This is because most
people on mj are not experts in physics or in law. Furthermore, they are
unlikely to rush to their Physics textbooks or their law books to check
up on the statements made, nor need they. They are justified in relying
on experts.
However, if a person makes a statement regarding jewish law, I think it
is unnecessary for him to point out that he is a rabbi. The reason
given above for other specialists presenting their credentials does not
apply here, since everybody is supposed to go to the 'books' to check up
on torah statements; everybody here should be willing/desirous of
learning torah.
On the other hand, I think it can be counterproductive in terms of
preventing free discussion if the fact that ploni is a rabbi, ploni is a
rosh yeshiva, etc. is brought up by the person's signature after every
posting.
(Of course, if those facts are relevant to the posting, such as if the
discussion is about yeshiva administration, then it would be appropriate
to post rosh yeshiva/rabbinic credentials.) Hence I would suggest that,
on m.j., titles such as rabbi not be used by posters. I would, in fact,
suggest that that become a 'rule.'
Meylekh Viswanath
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From: Avi Feldblum <feldblum>
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 00:32:26 -0500
Subject: Re: _Rabbi_ Ploni
Meylekh Viswanath writes:
> However, if a person makes a statement regarding jewish law, I think it
> is unnecessary for him to point out that he is a rabbi. The reason
> given above for other specialists presenting their credentials does not
> apply here, since everybody is supposed to go to the 'books' to check up
> on torah statements; everybody here should be willing/desirous of
> learning torah.
While I'll agree that in the ideal conditions, we will each look up the
information for every issue, the reality for me is that I do not always
find that I make the time for it. So when someone writes something on an
open forum like this, I do not assume that is written is correct. How
much credence I'll give to a posting on a subject that I do not check
out myself, will depend on several things. If the person has posted in
the past on a subject I was knowledgable about, or went and checked up,
I will probably color my view of the current posting by what I learned
about the previous posting. If the person who is posting is a Rabbi, and
I do not have a prior record to go by, I will probably give more
credence to it, since the person has basically stood up and said "I have
competence here". As there are quite a number of people on the list who
I am sure are competent, if the poster who signs his name as Rabbi is
not, he is "risking" more by writing something and signing as Rabbi,
than if he were to post this "anonymously".
While I have not done any search of the past issues, what I have tended
to see is that most of the Rabbis on this list do not sign their name as
Rabbi on a usual basis. Most often, it is when they are responding to a
poster who has made a broad and absolute halakhic statement, that at
best is inaccurate, that they then sign their name as Rabbi Ploni, not
just Plone. To me, what that means is that they have now put on their
hat as Rabbi, to correct the error.
> On the other hand, I think it can be counterproductive in terms of
> preventing free discussion if the fact that ploni is a rabbi, ploni is a
> rosh yeshiva, etc. is brought up by the person's signature after every
> posting.
> (Of course, if those facts are relevant to the posting, such as if the
> discussion is about yeshiva administration, then it would be appropriate
> to post rosh yeshiva/rabbinic credentials.) Hence I would suggest that,
> on m.j., titles such as rabbi not be used by posters. I would, in fact,
> suggest that that become a 'rule.'
I decline from making that a "rule". The issue of "free and open"
discussion was raised a while back (I think about a year or maybe two)
and while there were large numbers on each side of whether or not to
have regular "disclosure" of the Rabbis, Rosh Yeshivas, etc on the list,
the consensus then was to allow the current "informality" to be the
"norm", while allowing anyone to identify their "status" if and when
they choose to. From my perspective, I think this is not something that
is broken, so I hesitate to try and fix it.
--
Avi Feldblum
Shamash Facilitator and mail-jewish Moderator
<mljewish@...> or feldblum@cnj.digex.net
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From: Zvi Weiss <weissz@...>
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 15:03:50 -0500
Subject: Female participation
Re Harry Weiss' comments...while it is true that it is the woman who
"triggers" the return to Torah values, that does not mean that there
should be carte blanche in letting people do "whatever feels
[spiritually] good". On the one hand, we apply to many *obligatory*
mitzvot, the idea of Mitoch shelo Lishma [do it for an ulterior motive
at first...] on the other hand, we are concerned with such matters as
Yohara ["arrogance"] and "Lo kol harotze notel es hashem" [not all who
want may assume a particular obligation]. It is for this reason that we
must consult LOR and not simply extrapolate...
--Zvi.
P.S. Re Rena's statement that "poor intentions do not make an activity
impermissible" -- note the statement from R. Moshe cited in an earlier
posting that contradicts your point of view.
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From: <EDTeitz@...> (Eliyahu Teitz)
Date: Sun, 5 Feb 1995 21:19:19 -0500
Subject: Feminism and Halakha
Leah S. Gordon writes:
>I am also annoyed by the frequent references to "feminism," or
>"feminist women," used as derogatory terms. In all likelihood, the
>users of these words are not completely clear on their meanings.
>There is a widespread (i.e. even among famous rabbis), but
>incorrect notion that "feminist" is synonymous with "lesbian,"
>"man-hater," "irreligious," "self-serving," or any number of other
>negative images. As it happens, all the feminists in my circle are
>heterosexual, androphilic, observant, and generous.
>The only universally agreed-upon meaning of "feminism" is "belief
>that women should not be discriminated against based on their
>sex." This stance can include those who do not see a different role
>as discrimination, though that is not my personal opinion.
contrary to what leah writes, most other rabbis that i have been in contact
with, even 'famous rabbis', fully agree with her definition of feminist. the
problem they, as well as i, have with it is exactly her last point - a
different role for women is _not_ discrimination, but rather a realization
that non-discrimiation does not mean treated identically. men and women are
different and therefore have differing rules. when the two will be identical
they will have the same rules.
rabbi eliyahu teitz
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From: George Max Saiger <gmsaiger@...>
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 20:46:57 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Gays and others at YU
I am out of the information loop re life at YU, but the discussion of the
legitimacy of gay organizations there makes me wonder: Are liberal Jews
there (I assume there must be SOME) allowed to organize for
social or educational purposes?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Larry Israel <VSLARRY@...>
Date: Fri, 03 Feb 95 08:27:36 +0200
Subject: Re: Motivation, etc.
I heartily agree that women should not do optional things, such as
dancing with the Torah, until they do all the required things. Otherwise,
how could we tell if they were sincere.
I think that this should be applied to men as well. Dancing with the
Torah on Simhas Torah is certainly optional. We should check the
would-be dancers to see if they spend enough time learning; if they
go to shul morning, afternoon, and evening; if they give enough tzedaqa;
if they daven with enought kavana; and the like. If they pass all these
tests, then they should be allowed to dance with the Torah. If they don't
we should tell them that they are just trying to make some political
point by doing so, and they should be told to improve themselves in the
required areas before they take on optional "showy" mitzvos.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Chaim Stern <PYPCHS%<EZMAIL@...>
Date: Fri 03 Feb 1995 13:00 ET
Subject: Permitted Aveira (Sin) ?
In Talmud Bavli Nazir 23b it says that an aveira (sin) done with
the right motives/intentions is (sometimes) permissible. Exact
guidelines are not given there. I've heard that this is a very deep
kabbalistic subject. Can anyone out there shed some light on this ?
Chaim Stern
pypchs%<ezmail@...>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: <jeremy@...> (Jeremy Nussbaum)
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 95 12:14:43 EST
Subject: Premeditated / Desire and Mikva Story
The issue of premediated permarital sex is sort of addressed by the
Rambam in Hilchot Na'ara Betulah 1:17. He deals directly with the
case of a father selling his daughter's "services." Since the only
"official" punishment for a seducer or coercer is a monetary payment
to the father, perhaps he can permit such relations either for money
or even for free. He answers that the only reason there is only a
monetary fine and no corporal punishment is that "the incident
happened by chance; without the (fore)knowledge of the father and
without her preparing herself for it, for such a thing does not occur
regularly and is unusual." As pointed out by a previous responder,
there are a number of different categories of forbidden sexual
encounters, about which there are diagreements as well. The Rambam
here states that "a woman who prepared herself for such actions (or
perhaps made herself available) whether on her own volition or at her
father's behest is a "k'deisha." There is no fine, but both the male
and female are subject to corporal punishment based on the prohibition
of "There shall be no k'deisha of the daughters of Israel." The Rambam
mentions that one of the issues is that if a father allows everyone to
to sleep with his daughter, "he causes the earth to becom filled with
lewdness, so that a father might eventually marry his daughter,
and a bother his sister, for if the girl should conceive and bear
a child, it would not be known whose child it is." Thus this source is
not conclusively relevant to the original story.
(To give proper credit, I picked up the source browsing Epstein's book
"Sex Laws and Customs in Judaism," and quoted parts of the Yale
University translation of the Mishne Torah)
Jeremy Nussbaum (<jeremy@...>)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: <warren@...> (Warren Burstein)
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 1995 09:25:21 GMT
Subject: Re: YU and Homosexual Clubs; Lashon Hara and the Media
Aryeh Frimer asks:
> In light of the Brody-Jolkovsky debate, I think the time has come to
>discuss the issue of Lashon Hara (Public and Private) and the Media. In
>particular, is there room for an Orthodox Jew to be a news/investigative
>reporter?
And from the other point of view, can society function without
investigative reporting? Clearly it can get by without the gossip
page (and probably would do better without it), but if you and I don't
read about problems (perhaps ones of more significance than the one
that started this) in the newspaper, how are problems going to ever be
corrected?
|warren@ bein hashmashot, in which state are the survivors
/ nysernet.org buried?
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End of Volume 18 Issue 31
