Volume 19 Number 93 Produced: Wed Jun 7 23:38:02 1995 Subjects Discussed In This Issue: Akudim Nekudim U'vrudim [Gilad J. Gevaryahu] Goedel and Eilu Va'Eilu [Micha Berger] Yacov, Lavan, Sheep, and Genetics [David Neustadter] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: <Gevaryahu@...> (Gilad J. Gevaryahu) Date: Fri, 19 May 1995 16:49:46 -0400 Subject: Akudim Nekudim U'vrudim My friend, Eddie Goldberg, was kind enough to allow me to post a summary of his article on the issue of "akudim nekudim u'vrudim". The original article appeared in Segulah Le'Ariella, Jerusalem, 1990. Gilad J. Gevaryahu ============== This is an updated version of the note about Jacob and Laban's sheep. I will try and state the main points briefly. Note, probably only goats are spotted (and the sheep are hum, i.e.brownish instead of the dominant white) but I use the phrase "spotted sheep" for those that Jacob gets for simplicity of explication, even though this is not the designation in the Bible either. 1. Jacob's family were professional herders. Evidently Laban's was not. However Laban's family were not complete fools. It is clear that both sides knew that there was a genetic factor in the deal and for this reason their flocks were separated by 3 days travel (Breshit 30:36). Furthermore, Laban's sons accused Jacob of cheating (fooling) their father. Of course it was also true of Laban. 2. There are two stories of what Jacob did. The first story is about the peeled sticks. If you read Hazal, especially in the midrash, you will see that almost none of them believed that "babameise" either. They ascribe it to either ahizat einayim (a form of sorcery), switching of fetuses (by God) or to pregnancies due to fertilization by the sheep drinking at the trough and backing up and sitting in the trough from whose waters they were fertilized (if I remember, the sperm came in hail [from heaven?]). (I guess this is not so far from Rashi's explanation to 30:39). Nor in my estimation could any professional shepherd have believed this, no less pass it on orally until the time of Moshe Rabbeinu. In fact, I think, as you will see at the end, this was a funny story that they told themselves about how Jacob was able to outsmart and belittle Laban. 3. The second story comes when Jacob calls his wives to the field to run away and he tells them of his dream. A messenger of God shows him that the spotted ram is mounting the non-spotted ewe and this is how to get even with Laban. (By this we know that Jacob understood Mendel's laws of random assortment of chromosome pairs, at least as it applied practically to his sheep and goat herds.) I contend that Jacob mated all the ewes with spotted rams before making the deal with Laban. How did Jacob know that Laban would let him set the terms of the deal? When Jacob first came, and Laban wanted him to work, he asked Jacob what his terms were. Jacob gave him an offer he couldn't refuse: no cash, nothing up front, just your daughters when I have finished . When Jacob asked Laban for Rachel (after his marriage to Leah), Laban set the terms of 7 more years and even gave Jacob a prepayment, Rachel, so that Jacob wouldn't refuse. So when Jacob wanted to leave, he knew that Laban would want him to stay and would ask to state his price. He made a deal that Laban wouldn't refuse. Since Jacob was in a position similar to an indentured servant (Devarim 15:12) Laban has certain obligations which he admits. Jacob, being a "nice guy", tells him: actually you don't have to give me anything if you agree to the following deal.... 4. How did Jacob enrich himself? He started his compound interest stake (his spotted flock) by using insider knowledge as well as utilizing Laban's capital (Laban's flocks) without Laban's knowledge. By the pre-deal matings, he got not the small number of spotted sheep due from random matings, but somewhere between 25-50% of all the sheep born during the next birthing season. In addition he greatly enriched the remaining herd with the recessive spotted gene. I assume from the story, that spotted is the recessive trait and non-spotted the dominant trait. Spotted sheep are homozygous (both chromosomes have the gene for spotted). When a spotted ram is mated with a spotted ewe, all of the offspring are spotted. This is why Jacob says that any non-spotted sheep that you find in my flocks are stolen. Non-spotted sheep were of two kinds: heterozygous and homozygous, which are ndistinguishable. However a good, professional shepherd could distinguish them by test matings; the heterozygotes can sire or give birth to spotted offspring. 1) Non-spotted heterozygous sheep have one gene of each kind. When a spotted ram is crossed with a non-spotted heterozygous ewe, half the progeny will bespotted (homozygous recessive) and half white (heterozygous); 2) Non-spotted homozygous dominant sheep (with two genes for non-spotted). When a spotted ram is crossed with a non-spotted homozygous ewe, all of her new offspring will be non-spotted heterozygotes (i.e. they will have one spotted and one non-spotted chromosome). In the ensuing years, Jacob must remove the spotted sheep at birth and cross only white ones. However he knows which rams are heterozygous from previous crosses and uses them to mate with all the ewes (until he has sufficient opportunity to test for new heterozygous rams) thus getting the maximum number of spotted offspring. Mating a heterozygous ram with heterozygous ewes yields 1/4 spotted sheep, 1/2 non-spotted heterozygotes and 1/4 non-spotted homozygotes. Mating a eterozygous ram with homozygous ewes yields all nonspotted progeny, 1/2 heterozygous and 1/2 homozygous dominant. 5. How do we know that the deal was made after the mating season? After I told my wife, Ariella my idea, she told me that I could only be sure if it was written in the text. She then read the text with me and found that in the story most of the verbs are in the vav hamehapechet (passe simple - narrative past) tense of the story: vayasar, vayiten vayasem, ..., vayehemu, vateladna, and all of a sudden: vehakesavim hifrid Yaakov! This is the plu-perfect, before the time of the story. If you want another example you will find it in Genesis 26:18ff. Incidently, my daughter who had been listening said that he was called Lavan as a shem gnai (a bad name) because that was how they tricked him. Also, in Hebrew there is no distinction between the sheep of Lavan and the white sheep (another double entendre). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Micha Berger <aishdas@...> Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 08:37:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Goedel and Eilu Va'Eilu Ari Belenky (<belenkiy@...>) writes: > Micha Berger continued my thought, *misrepresenting* it: he repeated > familiar "ellu ve'ellu divrei elochim hayim" (which was firstly > pronounced to resolve the machloket between schools of Shammai and > Hillel. Even they both argued Halakhicly flawlessly, Halakha follows > Hillel's opinion. Why - it is another story.) I didn't intend to misrepresent a continuation of your thought. I was trying to accurately represent my own thought, which was similar to yours. I appologize if I didn't make that clear. You MUST distinguish between the arguments of Beis Hillil and Beis Shammai, with those of Hillel and Shammai. The teachers only disagreed three times, all of them on dirabbanan's (Rabbinic legislation). The schools argues alot more often, the gemara writes, "because they did not properly serve their teachers", and Torah was lost in the transmission. The debate did NOT start with Hillel and Shammai themselves. I'm saying this not for Ari's edification, but because this issue is a big peice of the debate between Graetz's "History" and Rabbiner Hirsch, and has since become a major part of the debate between Conservativism and Orthodox. (In the conservative mythos, Hillel invents the middos shehaTorah nidreshes bahem [hetmeneutical principles]. Shammai resists all innovation, and rejects the midos for "strict tradition", providing thesis and antithesis for Graetz's novel about the history of the Talmudic era.) > All this is well-known and I did not discuss it because the solution > that "Halakha follows Hillel" is perfectly legitimite solution on the > syntaxis level and nobody has problems with it. For similar reasons, your should be clear that halachah follows BEIS Hillel. Again, in Graetz's view, a vindication of innovation in halachah; and in C view, a vindication of their phylosophy. I was trying to distinguish between two ideas, which I will call Divrei Elokim Chaim (DE"C -- the words of the Living G-d / G-d of Life) and halachah. My not making this distinction earlier probably lead to Ari's misunderstanding of my idea. (Based on R. Tzadok HaCohen -- it MIGHT even be what R. Tzadok was trying to say.) I wrote: : When two opinions argue, both are teaching Hashem's word. : Halachah, on this level, contains paradoxes. Abayei could say assur, : and Rava could say mutar, and both are within halachah. Both schools were teaching DE"C. So, the level of DE"C does include contradiction. (Or maybe, to be more exact, the logic used by DE"C does not include Aritotle's law of contradiction.) By not being consistent, DE"C stands outside the class of systems subject to Goedel's analysis. : 2- On a different level, halachic rulings are made. We can not follow : both Abayei and Rava. This is the level I'm now titling "halachah". To convert DE"C to practice, we must get a p'sak. In the case of Abayei and Rava, these psakim have already been determined. As new situations and problems arise, the psak does not yet exist. Such a system isn't closed, and therefor also may not be Goedelian. > The statement about "non-finitness" is merely non-true. In each moment > Halakha is definitely finite: all rules are known and finite, all > letters (things in the world known to us) also. We can multiply new > sentences infinitely, the basis is still finite. This seems to be saying that R. Mosheh's teshuvos could have been produced algorythimcally. Are piskei halachah merely geometry like: applying a set of ules iteratively to a collection of verses (and halachos liMosheh misinai - laws given ascripturally to Moses at Sinai). My point was that it wasn't. I was trying out the idea that the conversion from a pluralistic DE"C in R. Tzadok's thought-logic, to a usable p'sak halachah was a creative, and therefor system enlarging process. In fact, I was insisting that Goedel seems to imply the idea of getting a singlular p'sak halachah from the iterative application of a finite set of rules to a finite collection of givens is not always possible. R. Tzadok gives us an out. The iterative application gives us DE"C, which allows contradiction. A creative, and therefor non-closed, system of p'sak gives us halachah, which must be distinct. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Neustadter <david@...> Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 20:46:18 +0300 Subject: Yacov, Lavan, Sheep, and Genetics For me, the issue of explaining the story of Yacov and Lavan's sheep using genetics was compounded by another question that bothered me about the story. Yacov basically tells his wives that he did not try to get rich off of Lavan, but that Hashem just kept causing Lavan's sheep to give birth to whatever type of offspring was assigned to be yacov's wages. If Yacov was indeed taking advantage of Lavan, then he is also lying to his wives. Somehow, based on Yacov's previous actions, I can accept that he would take advantage of Lavan, but I would rather not accept the fact that he lies to his wives. For this reason, I was driven to look for an explanation of the whole story whereby Yacov is not purposely taking advantage of Lavan, but rather even he sees the results as a miracle of God (which he did not ask for). The explanation goes like this: Lavan has solid colored sheep and multicolored sheep. Obviously the multicolored are the minority, otherwise Yacov wouldn't have asked for them as his wages. Now, if you didn't know genetics, and didn't pay particular attention to which of your sheep mated with each other, you'd probably assume that if two solid sheep mated, the offspring would be solid, and if two multicolored sheep mated, the offspring would be multicolored, and that if a solid and a multicolored sheep mated, the offspring would have a 50-50 chance of being solid or multicolored. Based on this assumption, Yacov told Lavan that he wanted the multicolored sheep, the minority, as his wages. He then SEPARATED these sheep from the solid colored sheep. The reason that he chose his wages this way is quite clear from the text - he tells Lavan that he will later prove his honesty in that any solid sheep among his sheep will be considered stolen. He obviously expected that his multicolored sheep would have only multicolored offspring. Now in order to claim that Yacov wasn't lying to his wives, all we have to assume, is that Yacov also expected that the solid sheep left for Lavan would have only solid offspring. This is a very fair assumption, according to the logic described above. However, neither Yacov nor Lavan knew that genetics doesn't work that way. Obviously the gene for multicolored is recessive. Therefore, Yacov was correct in expecting that his multicolored sheep would have only multicolored offspring. However, among the remaining solid sheep, some of them had one gene for multicolored. If these solid sheep with one gene for multicolored mated with each other, then one in four of their offspring would be multicolored. In this way, Yacov, in addition to getting an initial flock and all of its future offspring, which is all that he intended to get, got some of Lavan's offspring each mating season. I found this explanation of the story to be reasonably satisfying. The one point I haven't mentioned yet is the issue of the sticks. Well, I have an answer for that one too, but I admit that it's not quite as satisfying as the rest of the theory. If you look closely at the text, it doesn't say that the sticks caused the sheep to have multicolored offspring. It only says that the sticks caused the sheep to become sexually active. In fact, it seems from the text that that is why Yacov put them there. He wanted his sheep to be more sexually active than Lavan's. If Yacov actually thought that the sticks caused the sheep to have multicolored offspring, why would he not have put them there for all of the sheep? Any comments? David ----------------------------------------------------------------------
End of Volume 19 Issue 93