Volume 26 Number 84 Produced: Sun Jul 27 6:55:18 1997 Subjects Discussed In This Issue: Rabbi Aharon Rakeffet's comments on separate seating [Jacob Levenstein for Rabbi Aharon Rakeffet] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: <levenstein@...> (Jacob Levenstein for Rabbi Aharon Rakeffet) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 13:28:32 +0200 (IST) Subject: Rabbi Aharon Rakeffet's comments on separate seating [My apologies on the delay in getting this out. I think this is a very important posting, and I did not want to send it out right when I knew there was a strong possibility I would not make it back on the net for a while. Sending it out now is my commitment to you to be here for you all now for a while. Mod.] Rabbi Rakeffet made the following comments at the Yeshiva University Kollel in Yerushalayim on May 20, 1997. I have attempted to clarify what he said by adding a few words. My additions are those that appear in square brackets [such as these]. Rabbi Rakeffet's spoken style differs markedly from the style of his academic writing. To fully appreciate Rabbi Rakeffet as a melamed I encourage the reader to attend his shiurim. If this is not possible, I encourage the reader to at least listen to his many tapes. Jack Levenstein Gentlemen, I want to come back to something I spoke about rather quickly after class a few weeks ago. Jack put it into the internet and a lot of people have commented on it. I want to clarify what I said. I want to point out that one thing in the internet was wrong, I don't know how it happened, someone misunderstood me or maybe my tongue slipped. The story of the Chafetz Chaim and the person coming to him for Shabbos who asked that there be separate seating was not the Gerrer Rebbe. It was Maharam Lublin, Rav Meir Shapiro, the Lubliner Rav. It is an absolute true story that before he comes to Radin, he tells the Chafetz Chaim I am going to be in Radin for Shabbos, I would like to be at your table. The Chafetz Chaim says, "with pleasure." The Maharam Shapiro, [also known as] the Maharam Lublin was a gaon adir beyisrael, the founder of Chachmai Lublin Yeshivah. He knew that the Chafetz Chaim was a Litvak, i.e., men and women eat together. Maharam Shapiro asks the Chafetz Chaim to separate, that is, to put his wife at a different table. The Chafetz Chaim answers that if that is the case you can't be my guest. It is an absolutely true story. Now I want to explain myself and explain myself well. I have to tell you in advance, some people said that if you don't have a mechitzah at a wedding, men look at other women, speak with other women, get involved in love triangles, ultimately divorce. If this is true then my words have absolutely no relevancy whatsoever. They are batail, mevutal, ke'afra de'ara [nullified as the dust of the earth]. At every wedding there should be not only mechitzot but mad dogs which can read minds and if any man who is not allowed to [look at women] (I am not saying single fellows. A single fellow has a right to look at a girl, mitzad the halakhah [from a halakhic point of view]); but if any man looks at another woman licentiously the dogs should eat him up on the spot. [If this is the reality] then I have my own problems. I will go home and I will go back and sit down with my Rebbe [Rav Soloveitchik], with Rav Moshe Feinstein, with Rav Yaakov Kamenitsky, and live in the 1950s as I lived, baruch Hashem, and go back to a normal world. My words have no relevancy if that critique is correct. What I am saying is something entirely different. We have a problem today, in my opinion, in the Torah world, whether we are modern orthodox or right-wing orthodox. Our sexual standards have broken down. Let me make something clear to you. If something is an aberration [Rabbi Rakeffet will soon explain what this something is.] I would not be speaking about this. I would not eat my heart out. I gave lectures in Midreshet [Moriah] that everyone should hear on [what should be our] attitude towards sex. I would not eat my heart out if it was an aberration. There are always going to be menuvalim [people living on a degrading moral level]. I am frankly offended by the Torah when we come to the Ten Commandments where it says "lo tirtzach". I have never even thought of murdering someone in my life. "lo tignov". When is the last time I robbed? "lo tinaf". I have been married on to 40 years, I have never even thought, I don't even want to say the word in English, of adultery. Come on. I am offended by the Torah. But what can I do? I have lived long enough to know that there are menuvalim. There are always going to be menuvalim. There are going to be murderers with beards and payos and big yarmulkes or people who look like me [who] are going to be murderers. There are going to be thieves and there are going to be adulterers. So the Torah has to tell us [how to deal with them]. [As to] if it is an aberration [or not, consider the following]. You have to think in halakhic terms. There is miyut hanikar [recognizable minority] and miyut she'aino nikar [a not noticeable minority]. An aberration means a miyut she'aino nikar. Unfortunately today it is a miyut hanikar [and we cannot ignore it]. We in the modern orthodox world have our problems. Single girls going to mikvah. I am not going to talk about that now [nor the other problems in the modern orthodox world]. I also feel that the charaidi world [has problems], and to me it is obvious [what is happening in that world]. I live part of the year in America. I know what is going on. I know what is going on here [in Eretz Yisrael], and I am not going to illustrate it out of "kvod Elokim hastair davar..." (Mishlai 25,2) ["It is the glory of G-d to conceal a matter..." What Rabbi Rakeffet is saying is that out of respect to Hashem, certain things should be hidden and not spoken about.] I don't have to tell you all that I know. I could give you names, by the way, of people and single girls and what not. Forget it. The charaidi world has a different problem and if Chaim Soloveitchik is correct [in his article titled] "Rupture and Reconstruction", within 15 years, their problems will be our problems. I articulate this problem very simply. They are developing an Ada veTzilah mentality [Beraishit 4, 19 and Yerushalmi Yevamot ch. 6 halakhah 5). Peshuto kemashma'o [to be taken literally]. On one hand they are very frum, very pious. They do what they are taught with a wife who grew up under the same concepts. [However, there] is a miyut hanikar, some who can afford it. [They] have mistresses, houses of ill repute, affairs, etc. and it is frightening. The statistics are there. Anyone who goes to New York can see with his own eyes. Rabbi Cooperman once came back from a trip to America in the 1970s and he was shaking, because a former student of his, a yoraid [resident of Israel who leaves for the diaspora], who was a taxi driver in New York and who had been a student when he [,Rabbi Cooperman,] taught in "Boys Town" [a school in Yerushalayim]. This student gave him a tour of New York and took him to the Port Authority area at night and he came back shaking. He told me [about] all the black [not Afro-Americans but rather those wearing black clothing] he saw in that area. He couldn't believe his eyes. That's America. That's the Western world. It grows into your bones. Sex is on every street corner. What bothers me is there is a falshe frumkeit here. Rav Yerucham Gorelick used to use that word. I have to tell you, Rav Yerucham was so insightful that I shiver and I shake today. [For example,] in my days in Y.U. there was [only] one boy who wore his tzitzit out. One boy! [Years later] I taught his daughter. I taught his son. Every time he walked into class with his tzitzit out, Rav Yerucham went crazy. I cannot repeat what he said to him in public. "Falshe frumkeit, ayich mit ayer falshe frumkeit" [false religiosity, you with your false religiosity] Rav Yerucham was going off the wall. f.f., falshe frumkeit! I don't know how Rav Yerucham called the shot. That boy, [now a] man, became a chazan in one of the biggest Conservative shuls in the United States. If I ever meet him......... I don't like falshe frumkeit. Now, we live in a world where men and women intermingle. Therefore, the halakhah is as follows. The Rambam Hilkhot Ishut Perek 24 Halakhah 12 uses a word in terms of tzniyut. He writes that women have to go out of their house with a "radid". That is his term. What is a "radid"? There is only one explanation for radid. It is a veil. Show me one woman walking around in Meah Shearim today who is not an Arab who has a veil on her face. So you see, without going into great lamdus [learning], and I spoke at great length with Rav Aharon Lichtenstein, [and] he spoke with the Rav about this, there is a certain subjectivity with those aspects of tzniyut that are not de'oraita [Torah law]. When the Rema paskens that you can't say "shehasimcha beme'ono" when men and women are sitting together, the Maharam Yafa doesn't disagree. Someone [responding via e-mail] said we don't pasken like the Maharam Yafa. It is nothing to do with the way we pasken. He [Maharam Yafa] doesn't disagree with the Rema. All he says is, a hundred years later [i.e. 100 years after the Rema], that we today are used to men and women sitting together. Therefore we have no problem saying "shehasimchah beme'ono". We should educate our men and women in the charaidi and in the modern orthodox world, [to] develop a wonderful relationship with each other. Marriage is a lot more than just a physical or an earthly union to enable you to discharge the obligations of "pru urevu" [be fruitful and multiply] and "onah" [relations]. Marriage is something else, way beyond that. And I don't think it was ever said better than the gemara in Gittin 90b, quoting Malachi 2, verses 13 and 14. The gemara says something overwhelming. It is [found at] the very end of Gittin: "Kol hamigaraish ishto rishonah, afilu mizbeach morid alav demaot, shene'emar, vezot shainit ta'asu kesot dimah et mizbeach Hashem bechi ve'anaka maiayin od penot el haminchah velakachat ratzon miyadchem" ["If a man divorces his first wife, even the altar sheds tears, as it says, "and this further ye do, ye cover the altar of Hashem with tears, with weeping and with sighing, insomuch that he regardeth not the offering any more, neither receiveth it with good will at your hand." (Soncino)] I refuse to take any of your offerings! The mizbeach is crying! And the prophet [continues]: "ve'amartem al mah?, al ki Hashem hai'id baincha uvain aishet neurecha asher atah bagadetah bah, vehi chavairtecha ve'aishet britecha." ["Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because Hashem hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously, though she is thy companion and the wife of thy covenant."] [The English translations are from Soncino.] When you divorce your wife, you are a traitor [against] the wife of one's youth. Look at the words, "chavairtecha ve'aishet britecha." A person should feel towards his wife, and vice versa, [that she is] his best friend. [She is] his confidant. [She] is his soulmate. [She] is a lot more than just his sexual partner or the mother of his children. To me, wherever I go I always want my wife at my side. I have seen gedolai Yisrael. I grew up watching the Rav. I saw Rav Moshe. I saw Rav Yaakov. I saw the way they related to their wives. It was a living mussar saifer [ethics book]. It was truly chavairtecha ve'aishet britecha. I come to weddings. I don't have that much time to go out at night. You saw how I was introduced [referring to the previous Sunday's public lecture]. Mike Strick once again [refers to my time spent in] Russia. Baruch Hashem, I have lived many, many different lives. Sometimes I am overwhelmed by how many different lives I have lived. I have never yet walked into the classroom unprepared and I never published anything that was found faulty. [Rabbi Rakeffet's commitment to the quality and accuracy of his teaching and to his published work requires a tremendous commitment of time.] You make a mistake, here, there. Some other document comes up [requiring a revision to what was published]. I published thousands of pages. When you publish you go before am veaidah [nation and community]. I am not ashamed to tell you that there has never been a major correction in my works. I am always busy. People call me and say, "Rebbi are you busy?" I say, "If I wouldn't be busy, would I be your Rebbi?", but please you called, you have a sheailah [question], go ahead. I try my best to go out with my wife once a week. It doesn't always work out that way. When I go to a wedding I go to mesameach chatan vekallah [cause the groom and bride to rejoice]. But there is a meal. You are sitting. You're talking. The greatest joy is to have my wife next to me. She is my chavairah. She is my aishet briti. She is a lot more than just my physical partner or the mother of my children and grandchildren. She is my confidant. She is smarter than me. She supplements me, complements me. Sometimes helps me paskin sheailot [make halakhic decisions]. I always appreciate when someone asks me a question [while] my wife is listening. Her input to me is sacred. Tzniyut is tzniyut. I reiterate, if people normally eat separate Friday night, then I understand [that] when they make a wedding they are going to have separate seating. They live in the Rema's framework, not the Levush's framework. Notice my words. I understand it [this type of behaviour]. I saw [this] with my own eyes at the engagement party for the son of a close friend. My friend's son-in-law is a Gerrer chasid. I saw this young man trembling because he couldn't enter a room where there were women. I saw with my own eyes. I was overwhelmed. I was shocked, but I have to respect it. He has a right, pluralism. I spoke about it Sunday night. [One of Rabbi Rakeffet's comments Sunday night was that once we say "na'aseh venishma", pluralism is our right. We can be chassidim, mitnagdim, Lakewood, Y.U., Washington Heights, sephardim, ashkenazim, taimanim, etc., etc., etc., but this is only after na'aseh venishma.] I [was] invited to the Gerrer Rebbe's nephew's shevah berachos. I [went] knowing [there] was going to be separate seating. However, when I am invited to Chaim Yankel's [child's] wedding, the same Chaim Yankel who sits mixed Friday night, goes to restaurants with his wife, goes here and there with his wife, with his girlfriends, etc., suddenly at his wedding, the falshe frumkeit. It is frightening to me. [Rabbi Rakeffet is not saying that every man who has separate seating at his simchahs also has a mistress and girlfriends. He is insisting on consistency in the practice of separate seating. He is also saying that there is a recognizable minority that does have mistresses, etc., and that to prevent further deterioration among our people we need to try and restore the way husbands and wives relate to each other to emulate what Rabbi Rakeffet saw among the Torah giants of his youth.] In the charaidi world there is a real problem today. As to the Poppover Rebbe, what happened there, I can't even mouth it, I don't want to tell you, but this is not an aberration. It is a miyut hanikar. The pilagshim [concubines] didn't come out of the modern orthodox world. The pilagshim came out of a certain right-wing world, whatever truth there is to it. [see The Washington Post, June 2, 1996] But you cannot deny that in Lakewood there is guy living with a pilegesh, bifnai am veaidah [before the nation and the community]. He has two apartments, two "wives", two sets of children. This is already not an aberration. This is frightful. We have developed an Adah veTzilah mentality. These people who had pilagshim were interviewed. Hashem yerachem. [May Hashem have mercy.] These are Bais Yaakov girls speaking. It is mind boggling. It is mamash [literally] Adah ve Tzilah, except it is a Jewish girl. For many others it is a Puerto Rican. (New York is New York.) By the way, vee zekristzelzach, azoy yiddelsach [as the Christian acts so does the Jew]. We have our problems here too [in Israel], much less percentage-wise, but the problems are in place, because we are also part of the Western world here. Now, what gives me the right to speak like this? First of all, I have to tell you I was just told, that Rabbi Frand [dealt with this issue on a tape]. I refused to listen to the tape [until after I gave my response today]. [I was told about this tape by] someone who picked this up [on the internet]. I can't believe what goes on. Put something in the computer and every one in the world suddenly is responding as if he is in the classroom. [It was] one of my students [who] picked it up on the internet. He called me the other day, "Rabbi Frand says exactly what you said, exactly. He says that if they eat separately Friday night....". I couldn't believe my ears. Baruch shekivanti [a Rabbinic aphorism used when one comes up with, independently, an insight that someone of greater stature also developed earlier]. I guess I belong in Ner Yisrael. When I heard Rabbi Frand says..... I have to get an honorary semichah from Ner Yisrael. I am going to do you one better. I couldn't believe it when Jack told me that he didn't know about [the following]. Then it dawned upon me. This all happened before you Rabbis were even born. I think I am 22 yet! You guys are 25, 26. This happened before you were born. When I came on aliyah, the State of Israel was shaking. You don't even have to quote Rabbi Frand. That he agrees with Rabbi Rakeffet, [compared to the following it is almost] unimportant. [But] when the Steipler agrees with Rabbi Rakeffet and the Steipler thinks like Rabbi Rakeffet, wow. May I quote the Rav to you. He used to say that his elter zayde [great grandfather], Rav Yosaif Ber used to say [that] when he thinks out a certain chiddush and he sees others [also] say it, he is very proud, because he knows he is going on the main highway. This is the famous letter. [At this point Rabbi Rakeffet showed the letter to the class.] When I came on aliyah this letter was circulating by hand in all the yeshivot in Israel. When anyone got married they gave you a copy. If anyone wants a copy, it is right in front of you. Its $10,000 a copy. [This is Rabbi Rakeffet's humorous but insightful way of emphasizing to his students the value of a shiur on which he worked very hard or the value of a great chiddush. We should value Torah properly, and, nowadays money is the measure we use for value.] Be my guest. Add it to the I.O.U. list. [Rabbi Rakeffet maintains an imaginary I.O.U. list of the tens of thousands of dollars that his students owe him for his special chidushim. Many of his students who eventually become prosperous actually repay their debts to him by their support of Shvut Ami and of the International Coalition for Missing Israeli Soldiers. Rabbi Rakeffet devotes much of his invaluable time to these two organizations.] I think you are getting a bargain at $10,000. Believe me. I am in a benevolent mood this morning, so I set a low price. If anyone wants to make copies, the office should make [their photocopier] available to you. I don't think you can enter the Rabbinate without [this letter]. It is an amazing letter. [Rabbi Rakeffet told me that the heart of the letter can be found at the end of the book titled "Zivug Min Hashamayim" by Rabbi Nathan Drazin, 2nd edition, published in 1975. The Steipler originally wanted his letter to circulate hand to hand.] [The event that caused the Steipler to write the letter] happened in Bnai Brak. I imagine there had to be Americans involved. Whenever there is extremism you have to find Americans involved; but I may be wrong. It was a group of people in Chazon Ish [Yeshivah] in Bnai Brak. The Steipler was the last surviving brother-in-law of the Chazon Ish. [The Steipler's name was] Rav Yaakov Yisrael Kanyevsky. By the way, [the Steipler] served in the Russian army. [Did] you know that? The [Steipler] rav was a gadol, gadol, shebigdolim. He was drafted into the Russian army and he served. He was in shiryon [armour]. He was deaf. They say the Steipler was deaf [and] that is why he could devote all his life to learning. No one could bother him. He was deaf, they say, from the guns. One went off right near him or a shell landed near him and he lost a good deal of his hearing. He was the gadol hador when I came on aliyah. This chug [group] got involved..., I don't even want to mouth the language here. It is hard for me to say it. They took an attitude towards sex [,namely, that] we are going to be machmir like the gemara in Ketuvot, daf 48a, the famous gemara, "Haomer i efshi ela ani bebigdi vehi bebigdah" [I will not unless she wears her clothes and I mine (Soncino)]. The Ramban quotes the gemara in parshat mishpatim on the verse: she'airah, kesutah ve'onatah lo yigra (Shemot 21, 10). [This group in Bnai Brak said,] "We want the minimum enjoyment out of sex, no enjoyment out of sex. We are just doing it leshaim mitzvah." The women came crying to the Steipler and the Steipler writes a letter [expressing his views of], if I can summarize with two words, falshe frumkeit, a bunch of phonies. Every woman knows about sex today. We live in a different world. What went on in the time of chazal is not applicable today. You're being machmir and your wives are crying. You leave them empty. Then he goes on like a sex guide. I remember a married woman in Michlalah, in one of my post-graduate classes in 1971 said to me, "Rav Rakeffet aizeh bizayon zeh shehagadol betorah tzarich lehazbir letalmidav aich lehiyot bnai adam." [Rabbi Rakeffet, what a disgrace that a great man of Torah has to explain to his students how to be human beings.] She hit the nail on the head. In the letter you will see foreplay, chibuk, nishuk, Ribono shel Olam, but this letter is right on. In the spirit of that letter, [I refer the reader to section 5 in the original, in particular] that is exactly where my thinking comes from. We have to have a healthy attitude towards women, towards sex, towards marriage. This has to be encouraged. It has to be developed, [based on] chazal, [and] understanding. But Ribono shel Olam, not with falshe frumkeit [which might result in our] developing a dichotomy. [By this I mean] here I am living with Adah, but when no one is looking, I am having a lot of fun with Tzilah. Hashem yerachaim. This is a problem. This is modern life, the Western World. There is no one living in a ghetto today. It creeps into our bones. Finally I conclude. You want to know something. If we want to know how to inculcate frumkeit values, I always quote Rav Yechiel Yaakov Weinberg, that famous teshuvah, chailek 2, teshuvah 8 of the Seridai Aish. Rav Yechiel Yaakov saw the best of both worlds. He was a Litvak. He [Rav Weinberg] becomes, I would say a discordant person afterwards. At times he is a Litvak [while] at times he is a German scientific scholar. I don't think he found a harmonious relationship between them. I think his criticisms of Rav Chaim Heller reveal the man's mind very well. Nevertheless, he has a right to remain discordant. The Rav [Rav Yosaif Dov Halevi Soloveitchik] also, in my opinion, never integrated. In terms of [actual studying], it was never Torah umadah under one roof [i.e., in the same classroom]. It was a harmonious co-relationship. In Rav Yechiel Yaakov's case it was a harmonious co-relationship of Lithuania with a German scientific approach, a Hildesheimer approach. In his teshuvah [we see that] he knew both worlds. He says when it comes to chinuch, we must bow before the German rabbanim. He says where I come from, Lithuania, when a woman went to high school and college, 99% of the time she became not frum. [On the other hand], in Germany women are professionals, women are doctors, and all of them wear shaitels and are medaktekot bemitzvot kallot kechamurot. Rav Yisrael Salanter came in to Rav Azriel Hildesheimer's school to see him. (Rav Yisrael Salanter lived in Germany for many years, as you know.) They told Rav Salanter that Rav Hildesheimer was giving a shiur. Rav Yisrael Salanter goes into the bais medrash to see what the shiur is about. He comes in and the whole bais medrash is filled with women. Rav Yisrael said if a rav were to do that in Lithuania, they would put him in chairem. But he says, "Yehi chelki beolam haba [Let my portion in the world to come be] with what Rav Azriel Hildesheimer is doing here in Germany." This is why the Yekkis had the best of both worlds. [By this I feel Rabbi Rakeffet means that German Orthodox women were all of the above that he described earlier, i.e. best friends, companions, etc., and in addition they were the intellectual equals of their husbands. Above all, they were totally committed to the Halakhah.] The classic Yekki seating was husband, wife, wife, husband, husband, wife, wife, husband. Eight people at a table, you had your wife next to you. On the other side was a man. There was no mixed seating [in a certain sense] and yet there was a healthy attitude. I can never forget in my time, in Y.U. circles I never heard of separate seating, until I left America. It wasn't shayach [relevant], not just [in] Y.U. [circles], [but also] in the Litvishe circles. Rav Aharon Kotler, Rav Moshe Feinstein, Rav Yaakov Kamenitzky, the Rav, how many weddings [did they attend] with absolute mixed seating. There was separate dancing, but mixed seating. It was normal. It was par for the course. For their own children, (I was at the weddings), there was mixed seating. There was no question about it. I just spoke to someone yesterday whose grandfather was one of the great American rabbanim, Rav Sholomitz, he has pictures at the Agudas Harabanim [dinner, where] everyone is sitting with his rebbitzen. Each one's kavod [honour] was with his rebbitzen. [They were proud to say], "This is my rebbitzen." Believe me, these great rabbanim behaved in front of their rebbitzens. If their rebbitzens wouldn't have been there, who knows what would have happened to the [Torah] world over kashrut, and [because of] infighting. But with their rebbitzens, these were their pride. These were their joy. Each one was their "nevat bayit" (Tehillim 68, 13) [See ArtScroll Tehillim for an explanation of this phrase.] I remember when in right wing circles the first outflow of the Hungarian or the Chassidic influence appeared in America [and this] ultimately leads to everything we have today, universal glatt kosher, and this attempt at separate seating, etc. I remember Rav Yosaif Breuer who was revered. He was a man who was baki in all of shas. He said [that] he is not in favour [of separate seating]. He is against [separate seating]; but if you can't stem the tide, the young people have to sit mixed. When they asked why, he said, "Because mitzvah gorreret mitzvah [the fulfillment of one commandment leads to the fulfillment of another]. We want people to make shiduchim. We want boys and girls to meet. We want dates to come out of this [wedding]." This was a beautiful, a normal, and, above all, a healthy approach. This is what I wanted to say to clarify my words. I end off again making it very clear. If people have licentious thoughts, every word I said is batail, mevutal, keafra de'ara. [If so] I go back into the 1950s [and that is where I shall live]. I leave the Torah world [of today] very merrily. Zayt gezundt, draitsoch ayer kep [not translatable]. Just don't bother me. I have what to do with my life, before G-d and man. ************************** Jacob Levenstein P.O. Box 4548 - Jerusalem - 91044 Israel Voice: +972-(0)2-5619006 Cellular (Usually Jack): +972-(0)50874378 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
End of Volume 26 Issue 84