Volume 34 Number 56
Produced: Sun May 20 8:39:40 US/Eastern 2001
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Canned Peas (7)
[Aliza Fischman, Elazar M Teitz, Joshua Hosseinof, Gershon
Dubin, David Riceman, Gershon Dubin, Carl Singer]
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From: Aliza Fischman <fisch.chips@...>
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 20:10:06 -0400
Subject: Canned Peas
The OU has an e-mail list that you can subscribe to by going to
http://www.ou.org/lists/subscribe.htm. They will keep you updated
regularly.
Tizku L'Mitzvot
Aliza Fischman
<fisch.chips@...>
http://www.alluregraphics.com
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From: Elazar M Teitz <remt@...>
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 22:31:51 +0000
Subject: Re: Canned Peas
David Riceman feels that "by telling us that we should avoid foods
without a hechsher, the kashruth organizations have aquired a
responsibility to disseminate hechshers and information about them as
widely and as accurately as possible," and then provides three examples
which, he feels, violate this responsibility.
First, the "responsibility" is unwarranted. It is not the kashruth
organizations who tell us to avoid food without a hechsher. Given the
intricacies of food production and labeling laws, and the resulting
inability to determine kashruth by reading the label, it is our desire
to keep kashruth properly which should tell us not to eat processed
foods without a hechsher. The organizations are merely warning us that
these intricacies exist, and telling us that the products under their
supervision avoid the pitfalls. It is not their responsibility to
publicize which unsupervised products happen to be kosher.
Furthermore, even if it _is_ the supervising organizations'
responsibility, none of the cases he mentions are examples of shirking
that responsibility.
"1. A local rav, who works for the OU, has told us that a dessert
labeled dairy by the OU is in fact only made on dairy equipment, and may
be eaten after meat meals."
This is not cut-and-dried. Nowhere in Shulchan Aruch is it
stated that food prepared on dairy equipment may be eaten after meat.
What _is_ stated is the reverse case, that while dairy food may not be
eaten together with food prepared on meat equipment, it may be eaten
immediately thereafter, without waiting the customary six hours. Not
all poskim (decisors of Jewish law) agree that the cases are comparable,
including (apparently) the Halachic authorities of the OU. They
therefore, quite properly, label such foods as dairy.
"2. Years ago, when I lived in Chicago, one of the local restaurants was
forced to go glatt when its machshir decided it would certify only glatt
meat."
Where is there failure to disseminate information in this case?
(Incidentally, the sentence is inaccurate. The restaurant wasn't forced
to go glatt; it could have found a machshir which certified non-glatt.
Obviously, then, it wanted a particular supervision. If that
supervision decided to upgrade its standards, or perhaps found problems
with the kashruth of the non-glatt meats available, does this in any way
represent an abdication of responsibility?)
"3. One of my friends, who works for the OU, described to me how in many
factories, precisely the same product made precisely the same way will
sometimes go into boxes with a hechsher, and other times into different
companies boxes without a hechsher."
This situation arises when a company allows private labeling;
that is, they allow other companies to use their facilities for
manufacturing the other companies' products, sometimes identically, and
sometimes with differing standards of quality. If the private label
company pays the OU (and it's usually a token fee), they may use the OU
symbol; otherwise, they may not.
What should the OU do: announce that the product made by the
companies which chose not to pay for the supervision is kosher, giving
them a free ride? If so, why should the companies that are paying
continue to do so?
"Where does that leave us?"
It leaves us adhering to kashrus, and at worst possibly not
eating something we could have.
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From: Joshua Hosseinof <hosseino@...>
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 12:08:01 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Canned Peas
> 1. A local rav, who works for the OU, has told us that a dessert
> labeled dairy by the OU is in fact only made on dairy equipment, and may
> be eaten after meat meals.
1. While my only affiliation with the OU is that I'm a member, I've
heard on a number of occasions from OU officials that OU's policy is not
to give a "Dairy Equipment" certification to foods for a number of
reasons: a. Some people don't know what it entails, b. very often
D.E. products will change suddenly to being really dairy - to a large
manufacturer relabeling is a big cost, and many consumers won't notice
the slight change from D.E. to D, c. Some halachic opinions hold that
D.E. should be treated like Dairy (what opinions these are - I don't
know , I have never come across them). We may disagree with that policy
of the OU, but it's certainly no secret. It's usually not very hard to
find out which OU-D products are really Dairy Equipment - They will
usually tell you if you call them up and ask. I think the desert you're
referring to is the Haagen-Dasz sorbets, which my local kosher
supermarket has signs saying they are D.E. If you check the ingredients
you find no dairy ingredients, only a warning from Haagen-Dasz stating
that it may contain trace elements of dairy products.
> 2. Years ago, when I lived in Chicago, one of the local restaurants was
> forced to go glatt when it's machshir dewcided it would certify only
> glatt meat.
2. You didn't specify that this was the OU giving the hasgacha, so I
don't think it's fair to blame them if they are not giving the
hashgacha. As far as the Glatt issues, most Jews from the NY area
expect kosher meat restaurants to be Glatt. It's not surprising that
this trend is reaching areas with smaller Jewish populations. In any
case, no one forces this restaurant to use the hechsher he has (unless
it's the only vaad). Most restaurants choose to be kosher for business
reasons (some for community service reasons - but that's rare).
> 3. One of my friends, who works for the OU, described to me how in many
> factories, precisely the same product made precisely the same way will
> sometimes go into boxes with a hechsher, and other times into different
> companies boxes without a hechsher.
3. I don't see why the OU or any other kashrus agency should let
companies put their symbol on their products for free, and without a
contractual agreement with the OU. The companies that had the products
without the hechsher - do we know that this is the only plant that the
company gets this product from - are the other plants supplying this
product to company also Kosher? Now if this was the only plant the
company was buying the product from and they wanted the hechsher from
the OU, I'm sure they could get a very reasonable price from the OU
because the costs can be shared among the other manufacturers. Unlike
some of the other certifications, the OU does not solicit companies to
go kosher - so if the companies want it they can come to the OU. If you
know that the product without the hechsher you see in the stores is from
that plant and is the same as the one with the OU, then buy it. For all
you know however, it might cost more than the one with the hechsher.
While I think there are some other aspects of OU kashruth policy that
are mistaken (no mezonot rolls on airplane meals, no Ochlei Kitniyot
hechsher for Pesach) I don't think these are the points to raise against
them.
Joshua Hosseinof
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From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 22:28:34 -0400
Subject: Canned Peas
From: David Riceman <dr@...>
<<1. A local rav, who works for the OU, has told us that a dessert
labeled dairy by the OU is in fact only made on dairy equipment, and
may be eaten after meat meals.>>
Correct.. In order to prevent confusion about the halachos of
dairy equipment with which not many people are familiar, the OU policy
is to call what other hashgachos call DE, dairy. It is not an accident
that this rav found out about; it's a policy.
<< 2. Years ago, when I lived in Chicago, one of the local restaurants
was forced to go glatt when it's machshir dewcided it would certify
only glatt meat.>>
It is a truism in the kashrus field that while a long time ago
glatt was considered a chumra, the fact today are that there is
(virtually) no nonglatt meat which is reliably kosher. So the rav
hamachshir here was correct as well, given the facts. If you don't want
the rav hamachshir to set standards for the hashgacha, what is he
supposed to do, sweep the floors?
<<3. One of my friends, who works for the OU, described to me how in
many factories, precisely the same product made precisely the same way
will sometimes go into boxes with a hechsher, and other times into
different companies boxes without a hechsher.>>
Not sure what the problem here is. If the hechsher was for a
private label and they filled their order, why should they put the rest
into a box with a hechsher? If you say that stuff WITHOUT a hechsher
went into a box WITH a hechsher on the outside, there is cause for
concern. What's the problem here?
<< Where does that leave us?>>
From what I know (and what you've told me) , in pretty good
hands.
Gershon
<gershon.dubin@...>
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From: David Riceman <dr@...>
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 08:33:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Canned Peas
I obviously didn't make my point clearly. The initial poster said
that he ate canned peas without a hechsher (why anyone with a palate
would eat such food I do not know). Several people responded to say
that he must avoid all processed food lacking a hechsher.
My post pointed out the problem with this position. If the hechsher
companies believe that we have a halachic obligation not to eat
processed food without a hechsher, then, I argued, they are playing both
ends against the middle. On the one hand, they purport to be our
agents, enabling us to observe halacha with a minimum of fuss. On the
other hand, they are acting as businesses trying to maximize their
customer base (by imposing chumroth we don't all observe) and profit (by
supervising a whole process but putting hechshers only on their
customers' run of the process).
So, on the one hand, we lack the information to decide for ourselves
which processed foods are kosher. On the other hands, the companies
whose function it is to provide us with that information are withholding
information for their own ends (which need not coincide with ours).
Hence my question:
<< Where does that leave us?>>
David Riceman
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From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 09:22:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Canned Peas
<<On the other hand, they are acting as businesses trying to maximize
their customer base (by imposing chumroth we don't all observe) and
profit (by supervising a whole process but putting hechshers only on
their customers' run of the process). So, on the one hand, we lack the
information to decide for ourselves which processed foods are kosher. On
the other hands, the companies whose function it is to provide us with
that information are withholding information for their own ends (which
need not coincide with ours). Hence my question:>>
Two points: I disagree that the kashrus agencies are imposing chumros on
us. In the two examples you gave, glatt vs. non glatt and DE vs. Dairy,
the decision was made NOT for chumra purposes. In the first, the
decision, correct according to my knowledge of the field, was that non
glatt=not reliably kosher. USA 2001, not according to the Shulchan
Aruch where it is in fact a chumra. Not a chumra today at all.
In the second, MOST kosher consumers are not aware of the halachic
distinction between something made on dairy equipment and something with
dairy ingredients. Go to shul tomorrow and ask the first ten people you
meet; you may be surprised.
The second point is that we are no longer at the mercy of kashrus
organizations to find out the facts of what needs a hechsher or doesn't.
There are many many independent publications or agencies who are not
beholden to the certifying agencies in any way who make this knowledge
public. I include here for example only Kashrus magazine, and Kashrus
Kurrents. The information on canned vegetables came from the latter and
was confirmed by the former.
They also give information as to what does NOT need a hechsher; the
information is by no means one sided. The facts of the industry today
are that greater complexity leads generally to greater requirements of
caution, but that's a fact of life, not a policy of following chumros.
Where we stand? Relative to the situation forty, thirty, twenty or even
ten years ago, very well informed.
Gershon
<gershon.dubin@...>
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From: Carl Singer <CARLSINGER@...>
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 21:35:44 EDT
Subject: Re: Canned Peas
I don't come to the same conclusion re: items #1 & #3.
#1 is the OU establishing it's standards and abiding by them. They can
speak for themselves, but I believe the story that was relayed to me was
that there is some confusion within the various Jewish communities re:
just what "Kosher - dairy equipment" implies re: eating such food with
meat product. The OU thus decided not establish a new category of
OU-DE.
#3 is common place. My wife recalls going to a pretzel factory in
Lancaster County where production coming off the line went to three
different brands -- one of which bore a chasgacha. First of all, the
other two product brands did not pay for a chasgacha -- for that matter
they may not want one -- Since the OU cannot supervise only 1/3rd of a
production run, it's obvious that there only choice is to supervise the
entire run.
If, indeed, you are being told to avoid the product without the
chasgacha -- you are being told correctly. For all you know the brand
without the chasgacha is also produced in other plants using treif
ingredients, or without supervision, or for that matter in a different
production run at that same plant. It's open (faulty) logic to presume
that just because SOME product A (which doesn't bear a chasgacha) is
produced in the same production run as SOME product B (which does bear a
chasgacha) that ALL product A is kosher (without a chasgacha.)
As much as I dislike the artificial frumming up of things and the
frummer than thou that's creeping into our food chain -- and I know that
there are errors and abuses -- but I acknowledge that food processing is
a complicated industry and I'm grateful that there are dedicated Jews
who provide me a greater level of comfort re: the kashruth of the food
that I eat.
Kol Tov
Carl Singer
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End of Volume 34 Issue 56