Volume 37 Number 63
Produced: Wed Oct 30 5:17:52 US/Eastern 2002
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Clothes from the Drier?
[Leah S. Gordon]
Is Maarat Eyin (Morris Aiyen) in the eye of the beholder
[Carl Singer]
Marat Eiyen and Hilchos Shabos
[David Waxman]
Marit Eiyin (7)
[Bernard Raab, Aharon Fischman, David Waxman, Mike Gerver, Carl
Singer, Batya Medad, Shimon Lebowitz]
Marit Eiyin of the Treif Restaurant
[Leah S. Gordon]
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From: Leah S. Gordon <leah@...>
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 16:17:16 -0800
Subject: Clothes from the Drier?
In the discussion of whether it is appropriate to see someone's clothes
left in the washer/drier on shabbat, the implication was made that these
machines should be completely empty. I therefore have two questions--
1. Is there really a problem with using the washer as a hamper on
shabbat, i.e. for the dirty clothes, diapers, etc. one produces on
shabbat? I can't think of a family that doesn't do this in my
community, unless they don't have a machine.
2. a. Suppose you are in a rush and didn't empty the drier before
shabbat, but you need an item to wear on shabbat that is in the drier.
Suppose further that there is no light in the drier, no buzzer to be
buzzed, etc. if you open/close the drier. Suppose further that the item
to get out isn't one you'd fold or shake out (someone said that was like
"ironing"). Can't you open it and get out the underwear or whatever?
b. Suppose you are in a rush and you have time to start the wash/dry
before shabbat, but then it's suddenly candle-lighting time. Must you
really stop the machine, take the wet/dirty/etc. clothes out, etc. so as
not to have them running on shabbat or full of your clothes? I can't
believe this is the case, considering that such things as timer-clocks
for appliances are allowed.
--Leah Gordon
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From: <CARLSINGER@...> (Carl Singer)
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 23:27:09 EST
Subject: Is Maarat Eyin (Morris Aiyen) in the eye of the beholder
Some years earlier I had asked our highly respected LOR whether I
could use an automatic lawn sprinkler system which by its nature
would operate on Shabbat every 2 or 3 weeks, or whether I would
have to replace the timer with one which could be programmed never
to operate on Shabbat. His response: "What's the problem?" I said:
"What about Maarat Eiyen?" He poo-pooed and again said something
like: "Everybody(!) would understand that you are using a
timer..."
This points to an interesting question -- is Maarat Eiyen a function of
community standards (or community intolerance) and / or one's
reputation.
Case #1 - if one lives in a community where Jews respect each other and
trust each other (I'm not sure what other terms might characterize the
community) then the boundary for Maarat Eiyen is much higher, because
community members would understand and not jump to any absurd conclusion
that you were doing anything wrong. Conversely, if one lives in [a
community where the above is not the case (Mod)], then one needs to be
especially careful lest everyone jump on them, always assuming the
worst.
Case #2 - if Plony, the am ha'aretz does something it's suspect, but a
respective Rav Plony has much more lattittude as he might get the
benefit of the doubt.
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From: David Waxman <yitz99@...>
Subject: Re: Marat Eiyen and Hilchos Shabos
>> Iggeret Moshe OC/a ch. 96, p. 147 states (my translation): "The
>> prohibition of marat eiyen applies only to an action that, while
>> one does it in a permissible manner, is done in a forbidden manner
>> in the majority of cases..."
> I don't understand. According to the (above), how do any of the
> hilchos of Eruv - both for carrying among private and extending
> beyond 2000amos - apply? They should be all Marat Eiyen examples.
> Why are baby carriages with collapsable covers allowed?
> Should be Marat Eiyen for melacha Ohel.
> Why is one allowed to take things out of a hot oven?
Let's look at your questions one by one.
1. If you observe someone carrying within an Eruv chatzerot, why would
you judge that act unfavorably? Keep in mind, we are not concerned
about people who are ignorant or misinformed about halacha. Likewise
(my assumption), we would not be concerned about people that are
ignorant about the fact that an eruv exists.
2. Eruv Tchumim - All you would observe is a person taking a walk -
what's the problem?
3. >>Why are baby carriages with collapsable covers allowed? << Shmirath
Shabbath 24:13:b:1 says that it is permissible. Marat eiyen only
applies if there is a probable issur. In this case, there is no issur
at all.
4. >>Why is one allowed to take things out of a hot oven?<< Shomer
shabbat Jews heat their food in a permissible manner.
The way I understand it, marat eiyen doesn't apply unless you make it
appear as if you were baking something. Example: say you displayed some
bread dough to your guests, then brought out some hot bread 30 minutes
later. In truth, you put the dough back in the fridge and heated up the
bread on a blech.
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From: Bernard Raab <beraab@...>
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 14:12:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Marit Eiyin
My former Rav, a man of great distinction and learning, once said during
a shiur, words to this effect:
"There is no mitzvah to wear a yarmulkah at the (public) swimming pool;
there is no mitzvah to wear a yarmulkah if you "sneak in" to see a
movie, or go to a night club, etc..."
The message was clear: I would prefer you didn't go to certain places,
but if you do go there, please--don't advertise your religiosity at the
same time; it is a contradiction! I do not recall that sitting in a
treif restaurant with a yarmulkah on was on his list specifically, but
it seems clear that it would be.
>>(And I wouldn't feel right about drinking something without a yarmulka on,
>>making a bracha, etc.)<<
I also once heard a rav say that a brocho said with an uncovered head is
still a brocho. Covering ones head is a separate mitzvah (although it
has become a sine qua non of our religion).
Kol Tuv--Bernie R.
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From: Aharon Fischman <afischman@...>
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 08:33:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Marit Eiyin
<Aronio@...> wrote:
>I'd like to hear your thoughts on my maris ayin quandry.
>For business, I often must go to lunch at non-kosher restaurants.
>I always wear a yarmulka at work and when meeting with clients out of
>the office, and all of my non-Jewish clients know this.
>While I only have a soda at these non-kosher restaurants, I still feel
>very weird walking in the door of a traif Chinese restaurant, for
>example, with a yarmulka on.
I have had business meetings in treif restaurants for about 10 years,
and it doesn't get any less strange. However, I always try to either
wear a hat in establishments where its acceptable, and if not have some
way of identifying that its a business meeting - usually wearing my work
ID or being in a business suit with others dressed the same way. Also,
the people I am 'eating' with will realize that I am not eating, or that
I am eating food I brought with me so they will not presume the kashrut
of the restaurant.
It still feels weird.
Aharon Fischman
<afischman@...>
www.alluregraphics.com
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From: David Waxman <yitz99@...>
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 22:27:51 +0200
Subject: Marit Eiyin
>For business, I often must go to lunch at non-kosher restaurants.
>...
>I asked my rabbi who said maybe I should wear a hat, but practically
>speaking that is very weird for me and I probably would not feel
>comfortable with wearing a hat during a business meeting.
>
>My thinking is this - doesn't everyone in the world know that McDonald's
>is not kosher even if I go there and have a Coke while wearing a
>yarmulka? Same with going to Denny's - nobody will think Denny's is
>kosher because they see me inside drinking a soda, right?
Iggereth Moshe, OC 4/2 has a tshuvah on wearing or not wearing a
yarmulke to work, which is not exactly your question, but is related (I
didn't read it.) There must be a direct tshuva on your question
somewhere.
As far as your latter question, we're not worried about someone
regarding Denny's as kosher, we're worried about them regarding you as
traif!
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From: <MJGerver@...> (Mike Gerver)
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 03:05:17 EST
Subject: Marit Eiyin
<Aronio@...> writes, in v37n53,
> My thinking is this - doesn't everyone in the world know that McDonald's
> is not kosher even if I go there and have a Coke while wearing a
> yarmulka? Same with going to Denny's - nobody will think Denny's is
> kosher because they see me inside drinking a soda, right?
I tend to agree. Another thing I do to try to minimize the problem of
marit eiyin, when eating in these kinds of restaurants for business
reasons-- when possible, I sit with my back to a wall, so that people
won't notice my kippa, except when I am going in and leaving. (If this
puzzles you, I should mention that I am from the older generation that
don't wear their kippot almost down on their foreheads.)
Mike Gerver
Raanana, Israel
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From: <CARLSINGER@...> (Carl Singer)
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 01:21:27 EDT
Subject: Re: Marit Eiyin
I asked my rabbi who said maybe I should wear a hat, but
practically speaking that is very weird for me and I probably
would not feel comfortable with wearing a hat during a business
meeting.
My thinking is this - doesn't everyone in the world know that
McDonald's is not kosher even if I go there and have a Coke while
wearing a yarmulka? Same with going to Denny's - nobody will
think Denny's is kosher because they see me inside drinking a
soda, right?
What do you think?
Since you asked him (your Rabbi), you might want to listen to him.
Wearing a hat in a business meeting is awkward -- wearing a hat in a
fastfood restuarant not, it's common.
In addition to you wouldn't want someone to think that since a Jew
wearing a yarmulke is eating here that it's OK for them to do so -- they
might conjecture that the salad or the fish is kosher, not knowing that
you only have soda.
Kol Tov,
Carl
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From: Batya Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 06:21:03 +0200
Subject: Re: Marit Eiyin
Eiyen?" He poo-pooed and again said something like: "Everybody(!)
would understand that you are using a timer..."
Very naive. In (probably all) religious communities there are guests
and those trying to learn more (or are there for whatever reasons), who
learn from what they see. They see the sprinkler going on and off and
assume that one can turn it on and off. "Water's not electric, right."
One has to be very careful about perceptions. That is the significance
of "marat eyin." Something may be technically permitted, but if that
technique is not visible, it shouldn't be done.
Batya
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From: Shimon Lebowitz <shimonl@...>
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 08:12:10 +0200
Subject: Marit Eiyin
I remember a teacher of mine saying that the halacha differentiates
between 2 separate reasons for not doing something (not necessarily on
Shabbat), which could be misconstrued as a forbidden act.
The first is in those cases where ChaZa"L themselves decreed (gazru)
because of Mar'it ha`Ayin. In such a case, the act is forbidden even
'bechadrei chadarim" (in private), and changes in culture or technology
are irrelevant. "Af al pi sheta`am bateil, gezeira lo batla" - the
removal of the rationale for the decree does not remove the decree
itself. There are a limited (small) number of acts which are included
in this class.
The other reason to refrain from some permitted act is in order to
comply with the commandment "vihyitem nekiyim meHashem umiYisra'el" -
you must appear innocent before haShem *and* Yisra'el (this is an
extension of the meaning of verse in Bamidbar 32:22). Since in this case
*appearance* is what matters, there are 2 major effects:
1) acts in private are not involved, since no one sees what you are
doing, you do not appear to be violating any law.
2) technology changes the rules. When margarine was a brand new
invention, it was not used at meat meals without a visible wrapper, but
today everyone knows about it (and probably more people use it than
butter, at least in some locales). The same with regard to computerized
sprinklers, and shabbat-clocks. No one *today* would suspect that you
turning on your lights, though I have no idea how the first users got
around this problem. Perhaps they were not used until automatic timers
became well known in the general non-Jewish community?
I do not know of any source for this differentiation, but that is what I
remember being taught.
Bechavod,
Shimon Lebowitz mailto:<shimonl@...>
Jerusalem, Israel PGP: http://www.poboxes.com/shimonpgp
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From: Leah S. Gordon <leah@...>
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 16:25:01 -0800
Subject: Marit Eiyin of the Treif Restaurant
I am interested in the replies to the poster about wearing a kippah into
the treif restaurant for a soda.
I had this problem, except, as a woman not wearing a kippah, I didn't
have any obvious outer signs of being kosher when I went in to get the
soda. (BTW, my empathy is strongly with the poster, because it sure is
irritating after a while to get the tenth, "oh, is that all you're
having?" question while you sit smelling treif food and being starving.)
I think we discussed here on m-j about going into McD's to use the
bathroom, and decided that it was ok (since McD's likes to have people
benefit from its stores for public image purposes) and that one should
keep on any religious accoutrements.
This may not work in your industry/formality situation, but what I
started doing (until I switched to work for a Jewish organization ;) )
was to bring my own piece of fruit or sandwich (not too much stuff or it
was weird) to the lunch. The restaurant (not being kosher, haha) didn't
really mind, and it would have been obvious to any observer that I
wasn't eating the pork stir fry but rather an apple.
Oh, and I agree that a hat would be a bad idea, since it is regarded as
poor manners to wear one indoors.
--Leah Gordon
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End of Volume 37 Issue 63
