Volume 40 Number 25
Produced: Tue Jul 29 4:54:54 US/Eastern 2003
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Carrying on Yom Tov (10)
[Chaim Tatel, Gershon Dubin, Gershon Dubin, Akiva Miller,
Harlan Braude, Binyomin Segal, Gershon Dubin, Binyomin Segal,
Gershon Dubin, Binyomin Segal]
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From: Chaim Tatel <chaimyt@...>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 08:11:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Carrying on Yom Tov
A very interesting article re: carrying on Yom Tov is posted on Torah.Org's
website:
http://torah.org/advanced/weekly-halacha/5763/bamidbar.html
Parashas Bamidbar
By Rabbi Doniel Neustadt
A discussion of Halachic topics related to the Parsha of the week. For
final rulings, consult your Rav.
CARRYING ON YOM TOV:IS IT ALWAYS PERMITTED?
QUESTION: Since it is forbidden to carry on Shabbos, some people install
combination locks on their doors so that they can lock and unlock their
homes without carrying a key. On Yom Tov, however, when it is permitted
to carry under certain circumstances, many people carry their house keys
and do not use their combination locks. Is carrying a house key
permitted on Yom Tov when one has a combination lock?
DISCUSSION: It is forbidden according to all views and could be a
violation of Torah Law. There is a common misconception concerning the
Labor of Carrying on Yom Tov; many people are under the assumption that
all carrying is permitted. In fact, this is not true. To better
understand the specifics of this halachah, we need to distinguish
between three different types of carrying, each with its own set of
halachos:
1. Carrying for a positive Yom Tov purpose - permitted
2. Carrying for no purpose - prohibited
3. Carrying for a "preventive" purpose - questionable
There's a lot morein the article , but this will give you an idea of what's
involved.
Chaim
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From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 16:32:12 GMT
Subject: Carrying on Yom Tov
From: Binyomin Segal <bsegal@...>
<<If there is a desire to carry the object, that desire is almost always
sufficient for the tzorech kzat (small need) that is necessary.>>
Your desire to carry something does not make it a tzorech Yom Tov. Where
is that idea mentioned in halacha?
Gershon
<gershon.dubin@...>
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From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 16:38:28 GMT
Subject: Carrying on Yom Tov
From: Immanuel Burton <IBURTON@...>
<<"A responsum of Rabbi Moshe Feinstein indicates that things that are
naturally carried together, such as a bunch of keys or a box of tissues,
may all be carried on Yom Tov, even if not every individual unit is
required on that day. Likewise, the Mishnah Berurah indicates that if
one is uncertain whether or not a particular item will be required, it
may be carried."
Unfortunately, no reference to Rabbi Moshe Feinstein's responsum or to
the Mishnah Berurah was given.
I would imagine that the rationale behind permitting the carrying of a
bunch of keys is that a bunch of keys is considered a single item, much
like, say, a six-pack of beer is considered as a single item for the
purposes of a "five items or fewer" queue in a supermarket.>>
I wrote this offlist to Jay Schachter. The source is the last volume of
Igros Moshe (the one published posthumously; I don't recall the volume
although Orach Chaim 5 may be correct, I certainly don't have the
teshuva number or page number handy).
He distinguishes between tissues, which he said, and keys, which was the
Shemiras Shabbos Kehilchasa's inference from Rav Moshe's words.
If you take out a box of tissues or a box of cigarettes, you COULD use
any of them. Therefore, although you don't need ALL of them, ANY of them
will do and you may take out the whole box.
Keys, however, are not interchangeable and although you need your house
key, you can't use your car key for the same purpose. Therefore, the
car key is not tzorech Yom Tov and may NOT be taken out, even on the
same ring.
Gershon
<gershon.dubin@...>
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From: <kennethgmiller@...> (Akiva Miller)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 13:39:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Carrying on Yom Tov
Someone wrote <<< one may not take along clothes for the next day
because although they're needed for the next day, they are not a tzorech
Yom Tov for today. >>>
Several people commented that the prohibition against preparing for the
next day has nothing to do with whether or not the Eruv is functioning.
This is a very important distinction to understand: If a person commits
such an act while the Eruv *is* functioning, then he has committed only
one violation, that of preparing for after Yom Tov. But if the Eruv is
*not* functioning, then it is *two* violations: Preparing for after Yom
Tov, and also transporting an unneeded object outside the permitted
area.
David Cohen wrote <<< It seems to me that the question of what can or
cannot be carried on Yom Tov is there regardless of the existence of an
Eruv, and that the Eruv does not need to be checked before Yom Tov. >>>
I don't understand what he means by this. There most certainly are cases
where you could carry something on Yom Tov if the Eruv is functioning,
but could not if there is no Eruv. The Shmiras Shabbos K'Hilchasa gives
the following examples:
19:2) Something for which you have no need at all. [My favorite example
of that is a tissue which has been used but was not discarded
immediately after use because no trash pail was nearby, so it was put in
a pocket.]
19:4) Bringing a siddur home from shul where there is no fear of it
getting lost and there is also no plans to use it later in the day. [I
think this is very relevant for someone who does not go directly home
from shul but stops at some other home: Can he bring it home after
lunch? Is there a real fear of it getting lost at the friend's home?]
19:5) A walking-stick for one who is able to walk without it.
19:7) Where the carrying is for the benefit of a non-Jew, or a
non-observant Jew, or an animal.
Also, the Shmiras Shabbos K'Hilchasa 18:28 says that if spare buttons
are sewn onto a garment (as it commonly done on many items), they are
considered separate from the main garment and therefore the garment
cannot be worn outside on Shabbos without an Eruv. It seems obvious to
me that since they are separate, and cannot be used on Yom Tov, they are
therefore useless things which cannot be brought outside on Yom Tov
unless there is an Eruv.
In cities which do not have an Eruv, I presume that when people buy such
garments, and they might be worn on Shabbos, they are in the habit of
detaching such buttons shortly after purchase. In cities which do have
an Eruv, there is no need to do so. But I have a big fear that in cities
which have a "Shabbos-only" Eruv, which is not operational on Yom Tov,
people may accidentally be in violation of this halacha.
In addition, I believe the Mishna Berura would forbid a person to carry
his housekey outside, if there is someone at home who he can rely on to
let him in.
Akiva Miller
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From: Harlan Braude <hbraude@...>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 16:31:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Carrying on Yom Tov
> If one stays at one's parents for the first day and then walks to
> one's inlaws for the second, for instance, one may not take along
> clothes for the next day because although they're needed for the next
> day, they are not a tzorech Yom Tov for today.
One could argue that they could be a tzorech Yom Tov for today, if, say,
the clothes one is wearing tear or become soiled on the way.
Similar reasoning is used regarding cooking on the first day of Yom Tov
for the second day that is Shabbos (the issue of eruv tavshillin).
For the opinion that holds that cooking for Shabbos in that case is
*not* permitted min haTorah (i.e., an eruv tavshillin doesn't help),
don't we say that since unexpected guests could arrive on the afternoon
of the first day of Yom Tov, we are allowed to cook on that afternoon
(provided we're done at least an hour before candle lighting) and then
eat the "left overs" on Shabbos?
Why wouldn't the same argument apply here?
Perhaps, because there's no 'eruv begadim' as a 'heker'? :)
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From: Binyomin Segal <bsegal@...>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 16:15:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Carrying on Yom Tov
> Your desire to carry something does not make it a tzorech Yom Tov.
> Where is that idea mentioned in halacha?
A careful look at siman 518 in shulchan aruch and mishna brura will make
it clear. This halacha does not require a careful scrutiny tzorech
(need). Rather, even something which brings pleasure is considered
sufficient need for this law, since it is "simchas yom tov". For
example, it is permitted to carry a child because you like having him
with you. Beyond the examples I brought earlier, the mishna brura (sif
katan 10) mentions that one can carry a knife because "perhaps you will
have a fruit and want to cut it." He forbids it only if only if "one
knows for certain that he won't need the knife."
While it is true that there are differences of opinion on some of the
issues, it seems to me (and just little old me) that the normative
halacha based on current custom is to accept the lenient opinions here.
binyomin
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From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 21:19:56 GMT
Subject: Re: Carrying on Yom Tov
--- Binyomin Segal <bsegal@...> wrote:
<<While it is true that there are differences of opinion on some of the
issues, it seems to me (and just little old me) that the normative
halacha based on current custom is to accept the lenient opinions
here.>>
Again, as I mentioned previously, Rav Moshe Feinstein holds that one
must take off keys that he will not need rather than carry the whole
ring. According to your formulation, if I understand you correctly, one
may carry the whole ring because it's a tzorech Yom Tov not to bother
separating the ones you need from those you do.
I agree that we are very lenient on tzorech Yom Tov, but I think your
formulation crosses the line into "eino tzorech kelal".
Gershon
<gershon.dubin@...>
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From: Binyomin Segal <bsegal@...>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 21:11:27 -0500
Subject: Re: Carrying on Yom Tov
Gershon writes:
> Again, as I mentioned previously, Rav Moshe Feinstein holds that one
> must take off keys that he will not need rather than carry the whole
> ring. According to your formulation, if I understand you correctly,
> one may carry the whole ring because it's a tzorech Yom Tov not to
> bother separating the ones you need from those you do.
I admit right off the bat that I am not an expert in Rav Moshe's
tshuvos, however, using the Yad Moshe, I was able to find two tshuvos
that address this issue.
The tshuva I assume you are referring to is a brief paragraph at the end
of OH 4:16 (page 29). In this brief paragraph Rav Moshe says it is
forbidden to bring your car keys to shul on yom tov. He says nothing
about them being on the same ring as your house keys. In fact, from the
paragraph he seems to be referring to a separate ring of car keys which
would be prohibited (as we have both already stipulated) for two
reasons: there is no tzorech yom tov at all, and it is preparation for
after yom tov.
More important however is a second tshuva. This one is found in OH 2:103
(page 294). The question he addresses here is, if you are carrying
cigarettes on yom tov, and your pack has more in it than you will use on
yom tov, may you carry the pack as is. (Let us leave aside the
tangential issue of cigarettes in general, and on yom tov specifically.)
He is very clear that you MAY carry the pack even if it has extra
cigarettes, as it is one act of carrying. He continues by considering if
you can add cigarettes to the pack even though they are clearly extra,
and then carry that pack. He suggests that in this case there are some
opinions that may prohibit, but overall he seems to conclude that even
this is permitted. It is one act of carrying, and as such it does not
matter how many cigarettes are in it.
From these two tshuvas, I would conclude exactly the opposite of what
you stated above. That is, I would assume that Rav Moshe would allow a
person to carry a ring of keys that have both a house key and car key
(as long as the reason was to carry the house key, and not hachana).
Certainly one could distinguish between a "pack" of cigarettes that are
one vessel, and a "ring" of keys that are not, but I would not assume
that distinction without solid evidence.
If you have some other source that I may have missed, I am very curious
to see it.
binyomin
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From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 00:04:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Carrying on Yom Tov
<<From these two tshuvas, I would conclude exactly the opposite of what
you stated above. That is, I would assume that Rav Moshe would allow a
person to carry a ring of keys that have both a house key and car key
(as long as the reason was to carry the house key, and not hachana).
Certainly one could distinguish between a "pack" of cigarettes that are
one vessel, and a "ring" of keys that are not, but I would not assume
that distinction without solid evidence.>>
See Igros Moshe Chelek 5 Orach Chaim Teshuva 35 on this specific
question.
He in fact makes a different distinction between tissues/cigarettes and
keys. In the first case, ANY of the tissues or ANY of the cigarettes
may be used. So we don't say, count out how many you need and leave the
rest. EACH is available for use and they are interchangeable.
Keys are not interchangeable, however, and being permitted to carry a
car key because you need a house key is not at all the same case.
His conclusion is, therefore, as I had posted previously: cigarettes or
tissues, yes, regardless of how many you need; keys, only the ones you
may need.
See the teshuva there.
Gershon
<gershon.dubin@...>
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From: Binyomin Segal <bsegal@...>
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 07:08:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Carrying on Yom Tov
> See Igros Moshe Chelek 5 Orach Chaim Teshuva 35 on this specific question.
OK. I concede.
Given this tshuva, it would seem that there is indeed a reason to have
an eruv up on yom tov.
My impression is that the minhag is generally not like this tshuva - and
I take some comfort in the fact that (as Rav Moshe points out) Rav
Neurwith read the earlier tshuvos much as I did.
Nonetheless, this tshuva does in fact create a situation that requires
an eruv.
Thank you.
binyomin
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End of Volume 40 Issue 25
