Volume 43 Number 99
Produced: Mon Aug 9 6:29:00 EDT 2004
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Administrivia
[Avi Feldblum]
Dropping the Dime (8)
[Abbi Adest, Jeanette Friedman, David Neuman, Carl Singer,
Martin Stern, Michael Rogovin, Ari Trachtenberg, David Neuman]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Avi Feldblum <mljewish@...>
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 06:26:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Administrivia
Hello all, and welcome back after my slightly long weekend off. We'll be
moving with the next issue to volume 44 and I will include the Welcome
message as the semi-standard issue 00 for new volumes (I think the last
time I did was vol 40). I do need to issue a correction / apology for a
Subject line I updated in one of the the issues that went out on Friday.
Jeanette Freidman responded to an earlier posting concerning the Minchos
Elozor and his son-in-law, the Munkacser Rov of Petah Tiqwa. I
mistakenly identified the Minchos Elozor as Jeanette's Uncle, it is the
son-in-law who is her Uncle.
Avi Feldblum
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Abbi Adest <abbishapiro@...>
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 04:46:38 +0300
Subject: Re: Dropping the Dime
I was a little shocked at Esther Posen's statement that
<<If my neighbor was beating their child perhaps to the point of
endangerment, I might be caught in a real quandary although speaking to
their Rabbi or my Rabbi would be my first mode of attack even in that
situation unless I thought the situation required immediate
intervention. >>
What consitutes "point of endangerment"? And why would you be in a
quandry about saving a child from being beaten? Also, if you're only
willing to take action when the case has come to such a dire point as
"endangerment" how can you be sure that a rabbi's rebuke would be the
most effective response, more effective then, say, arrest by municipal
authorities? If I knew with certainty that a child was being beaten, I
would call 911 immediately, without hesitation, in order to save the
child. I would certainly not sit, think about it and maybe call my rabbi
for advice.
I don't think the secular authorities of a democratic republic like
America, or Israel for that matter, can be compared to the totalitarian
or monarchic gentile authorities of old. Refusing to go to the proper
authorities in order to save Jewish face, especially while endangering a
child in the process, is wrong.
As for basement apartments, proper fire exits is a legitimate concern,
not just a silly "tax code issue". Even if tax code were the sole issue,
you still have to deal with dina d'malchuta dina. So even if there is no
immediate danger, anonymous's friend is still breaking the law of the
land and I'm not sure why that seems to be ok according to you.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: <FriedmanJ@...> (Jeanette Friedman)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 20:22:53 EDT
Subject: Dropping the Dime
If my neighbor was beating their child perhaps to the point of
endangerment, I might be caught in a real quandary although
speaking to their Rabbi or my Rabbi would be my first mode of
attack even in that situation unless I thought the situation
required immediate intervention.
Dear Ms.Posen:
I am afraid to inform you that in the instance you mention above there
is no quandry since child abuse is child abuse is child abuse and the
issue is one of pekuach nefesh. ...the quandry is whether to call 911
or 911. That is the only quandry, especially in neighborhoods where the
community is still in denial--like certain groups in Boro Park, Lakewood
and Monsey. You do indeed drop the dime (or the 3.2, or whatever your
provider charges you.)
Jeanette Friedman
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: David Neuman <daveselectric@...>
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 09:43:33 -0400
Subject: Dropping the Dime
I wonder when an unqualified contractor sells a remodeling job which
compromises the safety of the occupants, is this in violation of putting
a stumbling block in front of a blind person. The purchaser is relying
on the representations of the seller.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Carl Singer <casinger@...>
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 20:08:42 -0400
Subject: Dropping the Dime
> I found the notion of informing authorities that someone was building an
> illegal basement rather appalling. Most basements are illegal because
> of tax codes not fire or electrical regulations.
I don't know where the above poster lives, but in my current community,
Passaic, NJ, basement bedrooms are legal only if they have two exits. A
local contractor added such (a direct exit to the outdoors in addition
to the existing exit up the stairs) when he build a bedroom for his
Mother. Any home improvement invites property re-evaluation. I
disagree with the premise that it is tax codes not fire / electrical
regulations.
I davened once in a local shteibel that was essentially the basement of
someone's home -- the lighting was jury-rigged with extension cords
running along the ceiling and their was only one exit -- I've chosen not
to daven there again -- I felt it dangerous. I wouldn't drop the dime
-- but if a G-d forbid a disaster happened many people who know better,
myself included, would be kicking themselves.
Carl A. Singer
70 Howard Avenue, Passaic, NJ 07055-5328
<casinger@...>
See my web site: www.mo-b.net/cas
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 16:43:23 +0100
Subject: Re: Dropping the Dime
on 5/8/04 2:02 pm, Joshua Seidemann <quartertones@...> wrote:
> I don't think that adherence to municipal building codes represents
> lifnim meshirus ha'din; the basement apartment risk may be related to
> violation of the code.
When I suggested that there might be a problem of mesirah in denouncing
a violator to the non-Jewish authorities, I was not suggesting that
adherence to the municipal building code was somehow not strictly
obligatory on Jews, only that it might not be permitted for a fellow Jew
to inform the authorities without first getting permission from the
local Beth Din. The violator is certainly doing wrong since these
regulations are designed, inter alia, to avoid possible danger to
life. However, since it takes some considerable time to do the
conversion work, there is no immediate danger to anyone's life which
would justify immediate action in this case , unlike the five year old
left alone.
Martin Stern
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Michael Rogovin <rogovin@...>
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 07:48:41 -0500
Subject: Re: Dropping the Dime
Esther Posen writes
> I found the notion of informing authorities that someone was building
> an illegal basement rather appalling. Most basements are illegal
> because of tax codes not fire or electrical regulations.
As a halachic discussion group, the focus should be on the issue of
mesira and the regulations on basement apartments are, in fact, based
mostly on safety (typically, the conversions are not done to code and
there have been numerous reported deaths resulting from fires due to
electrical overload). However, I am constrained to point out that Esther
may be missing another issue. The regs are also because the city bases
its infrastructure (schools, parks, sewers, parking capacity, streets,
etc.) on the population density of a neighborhood. When an area is
zoned for multifamily housing, the infrastructure capacity is bigger. It
can be bigger, because there is a bigger tax base which supports theese
facilities. Neighborhoods of single and 2 family homes have a
corresponding smaller infrastructure.
If I am law abiding and my neighbors are not, and the city has to build
up its infrastructure to support the increased ensity, I end up
subsidizing my neighbor unfairly through higher taxes which would
otherwise be distributed more fairly. More likely is that the city will
not or cannot increase capacity, causing parking problems, overcrowded
schools, dirtier parks, overflowing sewers, etc. This is not
hypothetical, it is happening all over New York City and elsewhere. I
resent anyone, religious or not, who decides that the law of the land
only applies to others or suckers, but not to them.
As to what to do about it, that is the halachic question.
Michael
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Ari Trachtenberg <trachten@...>
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 16:07:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Dropping the Dime
From: Esther Posen <eposen@...>
>Most basements are illegal because of tax codes not fire or electrical
>regulations.
I don't understand ... has cheating the government suddenly become
permissible Jewish behavior?
> If my neighbor was beating their child perhaps to the point of
>endangerment, I might be caught in a real quandary ...
Why? You have a halachic obligation to protect the health of any
innocent person. This obligation cannot be transferred or ignored.
The only reason I can think of to discuss such things with a Rabbi
concerns "how" to prevent the injustice rather than "whether" one
should.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: David Neuman <daveselectric@...>
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 09:34:13 -0400
Subject: Dropping the Dime
Esther Posen Wrote, Wed, 4 Aug 2004
"Most basements are illegal because of tax codes not fire or electrical
regulations. "
I have been reading the various posts regarding "Dropping the Dime" and
remained silent until now. I can no longer remain silent when a sakonoh
may exist. I am a licensed and certified electrical contractor. Some of
my niches include are violations corrections, home remodeling, home
updating and home additions,.
I have seen many home remodeling which include basement living quarters.
Let us set aside for now the ordinances enforced by various levels of
government. The quality of the work leaves much to be desired. The
Handyman / Contractor installs the wiring using exiting wiring without
concern for overloading of the circuit. The creates a potential for
causing a fire. I have seen it happen. The quality of untrained
Handymen / contractors should be looked into and references checked. I
do not mean asking a friend about the quality of the wok. What does
your friend know about construction quality. I mean ask a qualified
person working in the trades about this Handyman / Contractors work.
Several years ago we did an addition for a Temmisdik Ben Torah. It was
a three story addition including a basement. He knew that the basement
was going to be used as a bedroom and did not notify the city on the
drawing submitted. He was concerned about the means of egress in case
of a fire. There was only one entrance / exit to the bedroom area. He
had the builder install an access door in the closet with a ladder
should the need arise.
I can go on and on longer than the Eveready battery describing the
horror stories and need for quality installation when doing remodeling.
The NEC [ National Electric Code ] which is published by the NFPA [
National Fire Protection Association ] is under constant review and
changes every three years. In January, 2002 the code changed requiring
all bedroom outlets to be Arc Fault protected. This change was
instituted to PROTECT the habitants from potential fires. Most bedroom
fires are caused by improper electrical installation, see of extension
cords, heaters and defective appliances.
The local AHJ [authority having jurisdiction] will turn the other cheek
knowing full and well that a bedroom is being installed even though the
drawings state office, exercise room etc. The ordinances were put in
place for the safety of the occupants and not out of rishus as some may
think.
The building departments issuing permit for any construction have one
thing in mind, that the construction and installation by the trades are
in compliance with all building codes. An , Again, this is for the
safety of the habitants. When a permit is pulled, the estimated project
cost is placed on application. This is usually reported to the auditors
office in help with accessing property values. So you see it is not all
about taxes, it mostly about SAFETY
Esther, I am sorry to have knocked you off your soap box.
Duvid Neuman
Dave's Electrical Service, LTD.
216-371-1580
<DavesElectric@...>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
End of Volume 43 Issue 99
