Volume 57 Number 19
Produced: Mon, 07 Sep 2009 03:57:37 EDT
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Hareidi line
[Menashe Elyashiv]
Hotels and Shabbat (3)
[Daniel Cohn Carl Singer Mark Polster]
Is "Nusach Ari" synonymous with "Nusach Sepharad"
[Zvi Greenberg]
Main vs. Sub-Minyan
[Carl Singer]
Minhag Eretz Yisrael (3)
[David Ziants Jack Gross Martin Stern]
Non-Jewish husband and Jewish wife - "yesh b'zeh kol"
[David Ziants]
Nusach - homogenisation
[Carl Singer]
Nusachim
[Martin Stern]
Soda machines on Shabbat (2)
[David Ziants Harlan Braude]
Tashlich when there are no rivers or streams
[David Ziants]
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From: Menashe Elyashiv <Menashe.Elyashiv@...>
Date: Sun, Sep 6,2009 at 03:01 AM
Subject: Hareidi line
Someone told me that they went to some office in Israel to take care of
something. The line waiting was very very long. Her son took two
numbers from the queue box. Why?, asked his mother. He answered, mom, learn
how haredim wait on line. He walked around the waiting room, and found
another hareidi. This stranger gave him his second (extra) number. They
were out in a few minutes instead of waiting a few hours. On the way out,
they met another hareidi family that just came in. Her son gave them both
of his numbers.
And they didn't think that anything was wrong!
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From: Daniel Cohn <4danielcohn@...>
Date: Sun, Sep 6,2009 at 03:01 AM
Subject: Hotels and Shabbat
If a person checks out after 8 PM, the hotel will very often lose out by not
being able to accommodate another guest in the same room for that day. This
is true for every day of the week, including Shabbat. That is why hotels
around the world charge "late check out" fees in such cases, which depending
on the hotel and on the season varies between 50-100% of the daily rate.
So can you explain the rationale behind demanding that Israeli hotels should
absorb this cost on Shabbat?
And also, can you explain the rationale between the hotel kitchen's Kashrut
status and the room fees? Suggesting that the Rabbanut remove kashrut
certification because of late check out fee policy seems nonsense to me in
the best case, and unwelcome intromission of religious supervision in areas
that do not concern them(aka extortion?) in the worst.
Regards,
Daniel
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From: Carl Singer <carl.singer@...>
Date: Fri, Sep 4,2009 at 10:01 AM
Subject: Hotels and Shabbat
> In the past few years a very
> few Israeli hotels - which still have Kashrut certificates - have changed
> their policies, and insist that anyone not staying until Sunday must check
> out by 5:30 p.m. on Shabbat, even if Shabbat ends at 8 p.m., or pay for
> another day's stay. To me this change is deplorable, and I find it hard to
> understand how the local rabbinates accept it without withdrawing their
> Kashrut certification.
If one stayed 'til 5:30PM on, say, Monday, would they be expected to pay for
another day's stay?
Perhaps the hotel cannot accommodate guests who are checking in Saturday
evening or Sunday morning as a room that is occupied 'til past 8PM cannot be
turned around (cleaned, new bedding & towels, etc.) in sufficient time.
Consider that if Shabbos ends at 8:00 PM -- when might the room be vacant,
9:00 PM? 10:00 PM?
But, perhaps it's a revenue enhancing scheme to get another day's fee. Or
perhaps some folks took advantage of the previous policy.
Carl
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From: Mark Polster <mp@...>
Date: Fri, Sep 4,2009 at 10:01 AM
Subject: Hotels and Shabbat
In MJ Vol 57 #17, Shmuel Himelstein wrote:
> In the past few years a very few Israeli hotels - which still have
Kashrut
> certificates - have changed their policies, and insist that anyone not
> staying until Sunday must check out by 5:30 p.m. on Shabbat, even if
> Shabbat ends at 8 p.m., or pay for another day's stay. To me this change
> is deplorable, and I find it hard to understand how the local rabbinates
> accept it without withdrawing their Kashrut certification.
Having been stuck myself in this predicament in hotels from Mexico City to
Shanghai and many places in between, I can certainly relate to the
frustration that it should be a problem in Israel as well. That said, why
is the proposed solution to withdraw their Kashrut certification?. What
does their policy on checkout time - even if arguably misguided - have to
do with whether or not the kitchen serves Kosher food?
I think that Kashrut is politicized enough as it is without using it as a
club to attempt to achieve other goals that have nothing whatever to do
with kashrut, however admirable those goals may be.
Mark Polster
Cleveland, OH
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From: Zvi Greenberg <haroldzgreenberg@...>
Date: Wed, Aug 26,2009 at 04:01 AM
Subject: Is "Nusach Ari" synonymous with "Nusach Sepharad"
David Ziants asks -
"Are these nusachot indeed synonymous?
For example, Siddur Rinat Yisrael Nusach Sepharad says it is *based* on
Nusach HaAri. "Based" might imply "not synonymous".
If they are not synonymous, what are the main differences?"
In my synagogue here in Eilat the official siddur is Rinat Yisrael Nusach
Sepharad for Ashkenazim. However, I often use the siddur Tehillat HASHEM -
nusach Ha-Ari ZAL -according to the text of Rabbi Shneur Zalman of Liadi - with
English translation - published by CHaBaD. Sometimes I understand every word in
Hebrew in a sentence of the siddur, but cannot understand the thought of the
sentence. The Ha-Ari ZAL English translation clarifies it for me.
As I see it, the main differences are -
1) The Ha-Ari ZAL siddur does not have Shir Hakavod (Aneem Zemeerot).
2) The Ha-Ari ZAL siddur is for worshipers in the Galut; the Rinat Yisrael
siddur is for worshipers in Israel. It follows therefore that the Ha-Ari ZAL
siddur does have duchenen (the priestly blessings) on regular weekdays and Shabbat.
The haftarah for the eighth day of Pesach (Od hayom benov) in the Ha-Ari ZAL
siddur is read on Yom Haatzmaut in the Rinat Yisrael siddur.
Beginning to say "tal umatar levracha" are on different days.
3) In the Ha-Ari ZAL siddur some prayers are shorter than in the Rinat Yisrael -
Yizkor, blessing for the new month, taking out and returning the sefer Torah,
are some examples.
4) The Ha-Ari ZAL siddur does not include the prayer for the welfare of the
State of Israel and the Mi shebarach for the armed forces of Israel.
5) special features - aids to pronunciation
In the Ha-Ari ZAL siddur there is an asterisk over a letter if it has a vocal
sheva underneath. However, there is no asterisk over the first letter of a word
if it has a sheva as (so I understand) the sheva there is always vocal.
The Rinat Yisrael siddur distinguishes between an ordinary qamatz - pronounced
"ah" - and a qamatz katan - pronounced "oh". For some strange reason, the
qamatz katan (small qamatz) is bigger than the ordinary qamatz.
Zvi
Eilat, Israel
<haroldzgreenberg@...>
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From: Carl Singer <carl.singer@...>
Date: Fri, Sep 4,2009 at 07:01 PM
Subject: Main vs. Sub-Minyan
Here's a true situation that I recall from several years ago - comments
please.
A guest arrives in shule as part of a larger group of visitors as there's a
simcha in town.
This guest and his hevra go into one of our side rooms and have a minyan of
their own.
1 - should they have asked permission?
2 - under what circumstances should permission be granted?
3 - should they be free to use whatever nusach they wish?
As with most of these things when an "actor" does something there is little
"real time" to discuss and react.
Only time to mull it over after the fact.
Carl
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From: David Ziants <dziants@...>
Date: Tue, Aug 25,2009 at 05:01 AM
Subject: Minhag Eretz Yisrael
I have now looked at:
http://moreshetashkenaz.com/cycle2.htm
One thing that surprises me, and that according to this, Cohanim go up
to the duchan [stage] to bless every day (see tephillot y'mei chol
there). Is this true even in chu"l [outside Israel] among some yekkes?
David Ziants
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From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Tue, Aug 25,2009 at 07:01 AM
Subject: Minhag Eretz Yisrael
David Ziants wrote:
> I have now looked at:
>
> http://moreshetashkenaz.com/cycle2.htm
>
> One thing that surprises me, and that according to this, Cohanim go up
> to the duchan [stage] to bless every day (see tephillot y'mei chol
> there). Is this true even in chu"l [outside Israel] among some yekkes?
This is minhag Erets Yisrael and is one of the differences between it and
Chuts la'arets [oustide Israel --MOD] that are not dependent on the
peculiarities of the minhagei Hagra [customs of the Vilna Gaon --MOD] and
therefore apply even to those who come from Ashkenaz proper (similar to keeping
only one day Yom Tov).
Martin Stern
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From: Jack Gross <jbgross@...>
Date: Fri, Sep 4,2009 at 05:01 PM
Subject: Minhag Eretz Yisrael
I am not so certain that the Gr"a intended, or would have agreed, to abolish
recital of "Baruch Hashem Leolam..." (the "fifth Beracha" of Arvit now
almost universally omitted throughout Israel), as his student proceeded to
do.
The Ramban notes that in earlier times the Sha"tz said all of Birkot Kriat
Shema (the series of Berachot in which the Shema is imbedded) aloud, and all
others present fulfilled their personal obligation to recite the Berachot by
listening in silence. The Ro"sh reports that such was still the practice in
Spain (whereas in Germany those who could would say the text along with the
Sha"tz). [Edot HaMizrah continue the practice of having the Sha"tz say
everything aloud, but the congregation reads along.]
It is reported that the Gr"a did not recite B.H.L. My conjecture is that he
regarded B.H.L. as different from the preceding four Berachot: The
individual is responsible to recite the four Berachot (and Kriat Shema
itself), and listening to the recital of the Sha"tz fulfills that individual
obligation. But the fifth Beracha, which was instituted by the Geoniim to
serve in place of Tefilla ("shemoneh esreh") in Arvit for those who could
not recite the 18 Berachot on their own, is intended solely to be recited
(*aloud*) by the Sha"tz. The others present, or an individual praying
alone, have no requirement (and hence no permission) to recite it.
If this is so, we would expect that the Gr"a *did* say B.H.L. (and aloud)
whenever he acted as Sha"tz. I do not recall seeing anything explicit about
that in Maaseh Rav.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: David Ziants <dziants@...>
Date: Sun, Sep 6,2009 at 01:01 PM
Subject: Non-Jewish husband and Jewish wife - "yesh b'zeh kol"
I once received a p'sak (legal decision) from one of the leading
Rabbanim (Rabbis) of our generation concerning a middle age non-Jewish
husband and Jewish wife and the laws of yichud (the question was are
they allowed to sleep in an apartment for a few weeks where a single
Jewish lady also lives).
The bottom line at stake was does their status of being considered
husband and wife have any bearing, and the ramification is whether the
single Jewish lady will be breaking the laws of yichud [the laws of
unattached man and woman living/being alone together] - there being only
one other Jewish lady and not two.
The p'sak that I received was that it was permitted, and the reason
being the status of the couple can be be considered husband and wife
because "yesh b'zeh kol". I asked the p'sak through an intermediate
scholar rather than directly to this Rav, and so was unable to solicit
more details. (I prefer - at least at this stage - not to divulge the
name of the Rav. If I find a public responsum has been written on this
or I find a way to get permission, then I might do so.)
Would be very happy to receive input on this issue from the forum.
David Ziants
Ma'aleh Adumim, Israel
PS Once I posted a question which involved a p'sak - and from the p'sak
someone was able to identify the Rav involved. I wonder if the same will
happen here!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Carl Singer <carl.singer@...>
Date: Wed, Aug 26,2009 at 09:01 AM
Subject: Nusach - homogenisation
In our discussion of Nusach let's keep in mind communications obstacles of
previous generations. The printing and distribution of siddurs was somewhat
limited. Communities were to an extent more isolated.
Today we travel freely and easily throughout the world - -hence the
frequency of davening with people from other locales and backgrounds, hence
other nusachs.
Today publication is cheap and easy. Many of us have myriad siddurs, some
we purchase to study not to use.
It's not uncommon to walk into a shule nowadays and see shelf after shelf of
this shule's "Standardized" siddur vice a hodgepodge of different siddurim.
My three sons over the years have purchased and used various Gra siddurs,
reflecting their heritage - but they don't expect to daven in a shule which
follows the Gra's nusach, when davening for the amud they follow the
dictates of the kehilla.
The rich variants in nusach that many posters speak of are being homogenised
- likely by a combination of communication, mixed community demographics,
laziness / ignorance, and the "simplicity" of standardization.
Finally, we have national organizations that publish or endorse given
siddurs as reflecting some approved(?) nusach.
Carl
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From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Fri, Sep 4,2009 at 10:01 AM
Subject: Nusachim
On Wed, Sep 2,2009, Rabbi Meir Wise <Meirhwise@...> wrote:
> Martin Stern is totally mistaken.
> I have consulted with my father-in- law who is a prominent Yemenite Mori
> (=rabbi) and he confirms that shami means there ie eretz israel.
Many thanks for your explanation. I presume that he also rejects the
possibility that it might be the Arabic word meaning Syrian (which includes
Erets Yisrael in their usage) or perhaps the suggestion was never put to
him.
Perhaps he can explain why they don't they call the other rite 'kani'
instead of 'baladi' which is a perfectly good Arabic word meaning native
(with, according to my Arabic dictionary, the rather pejorative connotation
of 'country bumpkin')?
> In fact if one looks at the covers of the suddurim one will see either
> baladi or shami!
I don't see how the last statement proves anything about the meaning of the
word shami. It is obvious that where there are variant rites, each siddur
would state the one to which it adheres.
Martin Stern
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: David Ziants <dziants@...>
Date: Sat, Sep 5,2009 at 06:01 PM
Subject: Soda machines on Shabbat
Shmuel Himelstein wrote:
> I've noticed that in the waiting room of the Shaarey Zedek Hospital in
> Jerusalem they disconnect all soda and sandwich machines before Shabbat.
> This hospital is used to a large extent by Jews, but there are also many
> Arabs who come to it.
>From the point of view of demography, it is mainly Jews that would use
the hospital, although Arabs are there a lot as Shmuel pointed out.
With that, the majority of these Jews (unfortunately) do not know (or do
not want to know) that it is forbidden to use such a vending machine on
Shabbat.
The Rabbannim can tell us whether there is any real issur d'Oraita
(Torah prohibition rather than Rabbinic) involved (maybe the lights on
the machine can turn it into a Torah prohibition if they go on or off?),
but regardless of this, there is the issue of "lifnai ivair lo titain
michshol" ["Before a blind person do not put a stumbling block"], so the
hospital does not make the machines available to anyone. In my humble
opinion, I think this is the preferred way of following halacha and is
not a chumra.
On the other hand (l'havdil [distinguish between disparate situations])
in a hotel, the management might not want to have vending machines
unplugged, and the kashrut supervisor will go along with it because of
non-Jewish guests that are also staying at the hotel (whether in
majority or not).
David Ziants
Ma'aleh Adumim
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From: Harlan Braude <hbraude@...>
Date: Sat, Sep 5,2009 at 10:01 PM
Subject: Soda machines on Shabbat
In V57#18, Shmuel Himelstein wrote:
> [...]
> Jerusalem they disconnect all soda and sandwich machines before Shabbat.
> [...]
> Is this the Halachah, or is it a Chumra (stringency) not to offend
> religious
> Jews?
I don't know about the halacha, but I'd have safety concerns about
sandwiches
left unrefrigerated for that length of time!
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From: David Ziants <dziants@...>
Date: Sat, Sep 5,2009 at 04:01 PM
Subject: Tashlich when there are no rivers or streams
When tashlich is said next to a running kitchen tap, is it the water
that comes through the pipe to the tap, or the water that runs down the
drain, the "tashlich stream"?
The fire hydrant gushing water out seems to be a better option than the
above, as in this case the water really forms a stream running down the
road, rather than down a drain (which is more artificial).
David
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End of Volume 57 Issue 19
