Volume 57 Number 23
Produced: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 22:36:16 EDT
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
B"H Leolom
[Jack Gross]
candle lighting (4)
[Ira L. Jacobson Mark Symons Alex Heppenheimer Steven Oppenheimer]
Candlelighting and other timing issues
[S. Wise]
Do we need gradations of bad behavior
[Carl Singer]
Gadol Hador
[Harlan Braude]
Hareidi line
[Avraham Walfish]
Main vs. sub minyan (3)
[Martin Stern Akiva Miller Daniel Wells]
news from JOFA: Beyond the Glass Ceiling: New Orthodox Leadership
[Freda B Birnbaum]
Soda Machines
[Menashe Elyashiv]
taking numbers in line
[Leah S. R. Gordon]
The meaning of "am ha-aretz" in Biblical time
[Rabbi Meir Wise]
Yedid Nefesh
[ Gilad J. Gevaryahu]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jack Gross <jbgross@...>
Date: Wed, Sep 9,2009 at 06:01 PM
Subject: B"H Leolom
Haim --
Not all rishonim agree to Tos.'s explanation that the added verses are
intended to lengthen the service for the benefit of latecomers. Look in "R.
Yona" and you will find the "18 verses = 18 berachot" concept (making it
"ki'tefilla arichta", a lead-in to the tefillah, rather than a further
extension of Geula), and no mention of latecomers.
(Tos. on 4 also mentions the idea of "18 verses" -- and apparently that is
intended as it appears in R Yona, and as a replacement for the "latecomer"
thesis stated earlier in Tos.)
What source did you refer to when you wrote "[it] says specifically that the
congregation and the Sha"tz did say B.H.L."?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...>
Date: Thu, Sep 10,2009 at 10:01 AM
Subject: candle lighting
David Riceman <driceman@...> in mail-jewish Vol.57 #22 Digest asked:
>My wife and I were discussing the transformation of Yiddish (which
>my grandparents called "Jewish") phrases into English. One example
>which puzzled us is "licht benching"; why didn't it become "candle blessing"?
I have seen in obscure luhot the notation, "likht tzinden."
~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=
IRA L. JACOBSON
=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~
mailto:<laser@...>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Mark Symons <msymons@...>
Date: Thu, Sep 10,2009 at 10:01 AM
Subject: candle lighting
> From: David Riceman <driceman@...>
> My wife and I were discussing the transformation of Yiddish (which my
> grandparents called "Jewish") phrases into English. One example which
> puzzled us is "licht benching"; why didn't it become "candle blessing"?
And I wonder why is it referred to as licht BENCHING rather than licht
LIGHTING (though this may be because of tautology?), ie emphasising the
bracha rather than the mitzva. Similarly with benching lulav, "making a
leisheiv", though not so with laying tefilin or going to the mikva.
Mark Symons
Melbourne
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Alex Heppenheimer <aheppenh@...>
Date: Thu, Sep 10,2009 at 11:01 AM
Subject: candle lighting
In MJ 57:22,David Riceman <driceman@...> asked:
>My wife and I were discussing the transformation of Yiddish (which my
>grandparents called "Jewish") phrases into English. One example which
>puzzled us is "licht benching"; why didn't it become "candle blessing"?
There is in fact a parallel Yiddish phrase, "licht tzinden," which translates to "candle lighting."
I don't know which is the older term (or maybe they were both in use contemporaneously in different areas), but "licht tzinden" appears in a techinah (women's prayer in Yiddish) called "Shloshah She'arim" ("Three Gates"),whose text is available at http://yi.wikisource.org/wiki/-_"_. (The original of this techinah goes back to the 17th century, but I don't know whether the text on Wikisource is from there, or from a later edition where the Yiddish was updated.)
Kol tuv,
Alex
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Steven Oppenheimer <steven.oppenheimer@...>
Date: Thu, Sep 10,2009 at 04:01 PM
Subject: candle lighting
David Riceman wrote:
> My wife and I were discussing the transformation of Yiddish (which my
> grandparents called "Jewish") phrases into English. One example which
> puzzled us is "licht benching"; why didn't it become "candle blessing"?
Perhaps because it was also referred to as Licht Tzindin - candle lighting.
To tzind licht means to light candles.
--
Steven Oppenheimer, D.M.D.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: S. Wise <Smwise3@...>
Date: Thu, Sep 10,2009 at 12:01 PM
Subject: Candlelighting and other timing issues
Given that the invention of the watches and other precise time-keeping
pieces are relatively recent in the annals of history, what was the point of
all the various time calculations for candlelighting, daybreak, shekiah and
other relevant times. I can see how it applies now, but in the shtetl of
200 years ago, how did someone know when it was 18 minuets before shekiah to
light candles, or the precise time for vasikin?
I can imagine they did things to be safe in terms of time, but then what is
the point of the calculations. Why not just rely on what one can observe?
S. Wise
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Carl Singer <carl.singer@...>
Date: Thu, Sep 10,2009 at 10:01 AM
Subject: Do we need gradations of bad behavior
>> 2. I don't think that on the scale of moral issues, this falls into
>> reprehensible. It may be wrong but I think reprehensible is a bit much.
I'm taken aback by the above statement. I'm neither a linguist nor a
moralist,
however does it matter if behavior is classified as "wrong" or
"reprehensible" -- not to make
light of this, can one do a "wrong" with a shinui? Is it OK to do wrong
deeds
(but not reprehensible ones) against certain classifications of individuals?
At the risk of being simplistically binary -- isn't "wrong", wrong.
Carl Singer
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Harlan Braude <hbraude@...>
Date: Thu, Sep 10,2009 at 02:01 PM
Subject: Gadol Hador
In Vol.57 #22, Orrin Tilevitz asked:
> is it true that one ceases to be
> the "gadol hador"
> at one's death?
I read that it's a modern term, referring to sages since WWI.
As to whether the title survives the person, the issue becomes one of the
title's purpose.
If it's an honorarium, a person shouldn't lose honor merely because he is
deceased.
If it's to determine which opinion reigns supreme in a disagreement, that's
a matter of 'asei
lecha rav' (choose for yourself a teacher). An ironic question is if one
asks the Gadol Hador
if he's the Gadol Hador and he say 'no', do we accept his answer?
But, coining the term begs the question how the title is bestowed upon the
person to begin with.
There may be hundreds of brilliant talmidei chachamim (Torah scholars) in a
generation, yet
few of them seem to obtain this notoriety. Is it based on the number of
students that claim
him as their rebbe? The volume/quality of responsa the scholar writes? (and
who judges quality?
and who selects those judges?)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Avraham Walfish <rawalfish@...>
Date: Thu, Sep 10,2009 at 05:01 PM
Subject: Hareidi line
I'm glad Azriel has clarified that he agrees that taking two numbers to help
one's fellow to cut ahead of others in line is wrong. But I would like to
respond to several statements in his posting that indicate that he has not
fully understood why other participants in the discussion reacted so
vehemently to his first posting, which questioned why such behavior is
halakhically or morally wrong:
>1. I didn't say I didn't think it was wrong, I was asking for the sake of
>argument, especially in the halachic context of Mail-Jewish.
You wondered as well why it was *morally* wrong, and many readers felt quite
appropriately that the answer to this should be too obvious to need
explanation. Furthermore what is morally wrong should be forbidden to any
halakhically observant person, both because the halakhah mandates morality
(Kedoshim tihyu - one respondent cited the Ramban's category of *naval
birshut hatorah*; Ve-asita hatov ve-hayashar; Ve-ahavta lereiakha kamokha,
etc) and because, by and large, it is fairly easy to find basis in formal
halakhic categories for things which are morally wrong.
>Also, I would advise most people of the Israeli counter-method, which is to
body-check the
>person attempting to cut the line.
The issue isn't how we may defend ourselves against the practice, but why
some Jews whose appearance and lifestyle declare their commitment to Torah
find this behavior acceptable. It is also not as easy as Azriel seems to
think to counter the method, because people on the line usually will not be
aware that the person cutting in front of him has obtained the number
illegitimately.
>2. I don't think that on the scale of moral issues, this falls into
>reprehensible. It may be wrong but I think reprehensible is a bit much.
I agree that cutting in on line, while wrong, falls short of reprehensible.
What is reprehensible is turning it into widespread and acceptable practice.
The basic lack of respect for other people and the disconnect between Torah
and basic *derekh eretz* indicated by blithe acceptance of this practice are
nothing short of reprehensible.
Avie Walfish
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Wed, Aug 26,2009 at 01:01 PM
Subject: Main vs. sub minyan
In M-J V57#10, Daniel Wells <biuashur@...> wrote:
Subject: Main vs. sub minyan
>>
>> The whole idea of saying viduy and 13 middot is an innovation from the
>> Arizal and was never accepted in Ashkenaz proper (Germany and neighbouring
>> lands). The so-called Minhag Ashkenaz that is prevalent in many shuls today
>> in Israel involves changes made by the Gra and his followers.
>
> I doubt that there ever was a Minhag "Ashkenaz proper (Germany and
> neighbouring lands)" even though the MB does often refer to Medinot Ashkenaz
> as though absolutely every kehillah [congregation --MOD]
> had exactly the same minhag [custom --MOD].
Daniel has misunderstood what I was saying when I referred to "Ashkenaz
proper." I was not suggesting that there was a single minhag throughout but
merely that the minhag of saying of viddui before tachanun was not accepted
by any community in that geographical area, as far as I know.
> Minhagei Frankfurt, Hamburg, Berlin et al not only had differing minhagim
> many with influences of the Arizal and/or the Gra, but also many of those
> kehillot had made changes to their own minhagim over the course of time.
In Germany there were two main minhagim, usually called 'Ashkenaz' (South and
West) and 'Polen' (North and East), with minor variations in individual
communities within each. The latter was also used in Poland and other
Central and East European lands and in Denmark and England. The former was
used in Alsace, Switzerland, Holland and by the Ashkenazim in Northern
Italy. However the differences even between the two main divisions were not
very great, apart from the selection of piyutim and selichot.
There was a fairly uniform 'ethos' in the communities of what was the Holy
Roman Empire which differed from that in Poland-Lithuania. Unfortunately
those from the latter who consider themselves as following Minhag Ashkenaz
often do not recognise this diversity and tend to try to impose their
version of it on the remnants of Ashkenaz proper.
Martin Stern
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Akiva Miller <kennethgmiller@...>
Date: Wed, Aug 26,2009 at 01:01 PM
Subject: Main vs. sub minyan
I had written:
> My practice has always been to follow the opinion of Rav Moshe
> Feinstein, that one should always try to follow the nusach of the
> shul he happens to be in at the time. ... several posters have
> mentioned the poskim who hold that one should always follow a
> particular nusach regardless of circumstances. ...
> But there are other considerations too, and I would love to know
> if those poskim deal with them. ... Suppose someone is from a
> community where An'im Z'miros is normally said on Shabbos at the
> end of Shacharis, but this week he is in a shul where they say
> it after Musaf. This approach can lead to situations which seem
> absurd to me. On Sukkos, will part of the shul say Hoshanos
> after Shacharis, and the other half after Musaf?
Martin Stern responded:
> Surely the main consideration is not visibly to be different.
> So, for example, saying Baruch she'amar before Hodu in a shul
> with Nusach Sfard should not be a problem. ... An'im Z'mirot is
> not a matter of great importance and one should follow the
> local custom; ... As regards Hoshanot, one would be obliged to
> follow the local custom since that would otherwise be a really
> obvious case ...
Well, sure, that's how *you* feel, and that's how *I* feel. But the main words
in my post were "those poskim." How do THEY rule on these cases?
Too often I've seen an Ashkenaz minyan thrown off kilter by someone saying
"v'yatzmach purkanei..." in Kaddish, or even even the much-longer Edot Mizrach
version.
Some such people also say Kedusha with the "Naaritzach" text, which doesn't have
extra words, but "Keser" does, and both are disconcerting.
When I was much younger and learned Rav Moshe Feinstein's view (that everyone
should follow the shul's practices) I had thought this was generally accepted by
everyone, and so I was extremely annoyed by those who did not follow along. Now
that I realize my error, that this is *not* a universally accepted view, I try
to be much more tolerant of those who follow the other view.
And that's why I'm asking this question. Do those other poskim [Halachic
decisors --Mod.] really want their followers to always follow their own
practices, even in a shul which has other practices? Or would they agree with
Martin and me, that "[s]urely the main consideration is not visibly to be
different"?
Akiva Miller
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Daniel Wells <biuashur@...>
Date: Thu, Aug 27,2009 at 12:01 PM
Subject: Main vs. sub minyan
>From Martin Stern (with omissions):
> In Germany there were two main minhagim, usually called 'Ashkenaz'
> (South and West) and 'Polen' (North and East), with minor variations
> in individual communities within each. The latter was also used in Poland....
>
> There was a fairly uniform 'ethos' in the communities of what was the Holy
> Roman Empire which differed from that in Poland-Lithuania. Unfortunately
> those from the latter ("Poland-Lithuania" --DW) who consider
> themselves as following Minhag Ashkenaz often do not recognise this
> diversity and tend to try to impose their version of it on the remnants of
> Ashkenaz proper.
>
I wouldn't be surprised that those you consider as Polen Jews consider their
version of Ashkenaz as 'proper'!
However I would put it that Nusach Ashkenaz is like the English language.
Is the English of the New Yorker any more 'proper' than that of the southern
Texan, the Yorkshire, the Mancunian, and the Cockney? Just as the speech and
customs of those far flung communities have similarities and differences, so
too with nusach Ashkenaz.
If the information at URL http://tinyurl.com/ll2aje is to be believed,
concerning Vidui before Tachanun it would appear that Ashkenaz "ceased" the
recital at the time of the Tur.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Freda B Birnbaum <fbb6@...>
Date: Thu, Sep 10,2009 at 02:01 PM
Subject: news from JOFA: Beyond the Glass Ceiling: New Orthodox Leadership
I've been asked to post the following:
The following event will take place at the JCC in Manhattan -- 76th and
Amsterdam
Beyond the Glass Ceiling:
New Orthodox Leadership Roles for Women
The Jewish Orthodox Feminist Alliance presents a panel discussion on
female leadership roles in Orthodox communal life as seen through the eyes of
today's new leaders. Participants will include: Mahara"t Sara Hurwitz, Hebrew
Institute of Riverdale; Rosh Kehillah Dina Najman, Congregation Kehillath
Orach Eliezer; and Congregational Leader, Lynn Kaye, Congregation Shearith
Israel, The Spanish and Portuguese Synagogue. This program is made possible
by the generous support of Zelda R. Stern and the Harry Stern Family
Foundation.
Thu, Oct 15, 7-9 pm, FREE
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Menashe Elyashiv <Menashe.Elyashiv@...>
Date: Thu, Sep 10,2009 at 02:01 PM
Subject: Soda Machines
I went to our building site today. One of the arab workers asked me to buy
2 hallot for his lunch. I asked him why doesn't he himself go to the
grocery. He answered - its Ramadan!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Leah S. R. Gordon <leah@...>
Date: Thu, Sep 10,2009 at 10:01 AM
Subject: taking numbers in line
In light of the pretty-much-universally decried example of the person who
takes two numbers to have an extra to give to a later-arriving ally, I have
a related question -
One day in August I went to the DMV in an attempt to renew my driver's
license. After taking my number and waiting upwards of an hour, I had to
go. On the way out, I saw an elderly lady just arriving. I gave her
my unused number so she would not have to wait as long. Was that acceptable?
I certainly thought so, since she was taking "my" place. And, I figured it
was helping out someone who might need a bit of respite, seeing as how all
the seats were taken, it was hot, etc.
Thoughts?
--Leah S. R. Gordon
p.s. I ended up going the next week to a different branch office and
was taken care of much more quickly.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Rabbi Meir Wise <Meirhwise@...>
Date: Thu, Sep 10,2009 at 11:01 AM
Subject: The meaning of "am ha-aretz" in Biblical time
Exactly my point mr stern - Abraham did not bow to peasants rather to
the town council.
Nor did Ezra and Nehemiah return to the peasants rather to the Jews
who remained in the land.
Gilad Gevaryahu got it first time!
But the meaning of am-haaretz and it's use in the bible and Talmud is
irrelevant.
Baladi means mekomi = here ie Yemen
(nothing to do with social or educational levels)
Shami means shamah = there ie Hebron
(where the printing press was)
Yehud al-balad means local Jew not ignorant Jew.
Kol tuv
Rabbi Wise
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Gilad J. Gevaryahu<Gevaryahu@...>
Date: Thu, Sep 10,2009 at 02:01 PM
Subject: Yedid Nefesh
Bernard J. SUSSMAN (MJv57n22) asks:
> I am particularly keen, at the moment, on an explanation (in English) of
> the history and variants in the text of Yedid Nefesh.
Shlomo Tal (1909-1998), the redactor of Siddur Rinat Israel published a
book about his siddur work. In the book he has a picture of the original MS
of Yedid Nefesh. I think it was an autograph, that is written by the author.
A.Hasiddur be-hishtalsheluto, B. Teshuvot le-shae'elot be-Ikvot siddur
Rinal Israel, Jerusalem,1985
Gilad J. Gevaryahu
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End of Volume 57 Issue 23
