Volume 57 Number 24
Produced: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 22:09:27 EDT
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Candle lighting
[david guttmann]
Candle lighting and other timing issues
[david guttmann]
Candlelighting and other timing issues (2)
[Ira L. Jacobson Alex Heppenheimer]
Gadol Hador
[Martin Stern]
Hakol yoducha
[Martin Stern]
Hareidi line
[L Reich]
Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel I - killed by who?
[David Curwin]
Seudas savlonos (2)
[<Phyllostac@...> Neal Jannol]
Soda Machines
[Dr. Josh Backon]
taking numbers in line (2)
[Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz Bernard Raab]
tevilas kelim
[Rabbi Meir Wise]
Yedid Nefesh (2)
[Eitan Fiorino Ben Katz]
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From: david guttmann <david.guttman@...>
Date: Fri, Sep 11,2009 at 05:01 AM
Subject: Candle lighting
>And I wonder why is it referred to as licht BENCHING rather than licht
LIGHTING
Probably because some Rishonim (Ran) held that the Bracha "lehadlik" is
considered Kabbalat Shabbat and is the basis for women making the Bracha
after lighting. This became the accepted minhag though it is not Halacha. R.
Ovadyah Yosef had a debate with Rav Valdenberg Z"L on the issue and he (ROY)
paskens that the Bracha should be made before like all Birchot Hamitzvah as
is the psak of the Beit Yosef. In fact it is reported that r. Isser Zalman
Meltzer insisted his wife do so.
David Guttmann
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From: david guttmann <david.guttman@...>
Date: Fri, Sep 11,2009 at 06:01 AM
Subject: Candle lighting and other timing issues
>I can imagine they did things to be safe in terms of time, but then what is
> the point of the calculations. Why not just rely on what one can observe?
It is modern phenomenon and I believe post world war 2. It is one of the
symptoms of what Professor Chaim Soloveitchik describes in his seminal
article on the difference between pre and post holocaust practice (I forgot
the title). Rambam in a Teshuvah (Blau 255) was asked about the exact time
of Netz Hachama. He answers that "there is no obligation to be exact. It is
when it one who prays feels [mitkabel al had'at] that it is time"
David Guttmann
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From: Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...>
Date: Fri, Sep 11,2009 at 06:01 AM
Subject: Candlelighting and other timing issues
S. Wise <Smwise3@...> stated in mail-jewish Vol.57 #23 Digest:
>I can imagine they did things to be safe in terms of time, but then
>what is the point of the calculations. Why not just rely on what
>one can observe?
Some days are cloudy, rainy or snowy.
~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=
IRA L. JACOBSON
=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~
mailto:<laser@...>
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From: Alex Heppenheimer <aheppenh@...>
Date: Fri, Sep 11,2009 at 01:01 AM
Subject: Candlelighting and other timing issues
In MJ 57:23, S. Wise <Smwise3@...> asked:
>Given that the invention of the watches and other precise time-keeping
>pieces are relatively recent in the annals of history, what was the point of
>all the various time calculations for candlelighting, daybreak, shekiah and
>other relevant times. I can see how it applies now, but in the shtetl of
>200 years ago, how did someone know when it was 18 minuets before shekiah to
>light candles, or the precise time for vasikin?
>
>I can imagine they did things to be safe in terms of time, but then what is
>the point of the calculations. Why not just rely on what one can observe?
Hanetz hachammah(sunrise) and shekiah (sunset) are indeed defined
observationally in halachah -although it is true that there are slight
differences of opinion among the posekim, such as whether we take into
consideration anything obstructing the western horizon.But pretty much anywhere
except the largest cities or below major mountain ranges, it wouldn't have been
too difficult to see these events and plan one's activities accordingly.
Few,if any,halachic times are defined in the sources as an absolute number of
minutes; it's rather that they've been converted to these units by the posekim,
after more precise timekeeping devices came into use.[Which was a lot earlier
than 200 years ago;already the Rambam refers to fractions of an hour, such as
"two-fifths" (24 minutes) or "one-tenth" (6 minutes).] The original definitions
are either in terms of "proportional" hours (one-twelfth of the time from dawn
to dusk [Magen Avraham] or sunrise to sunset [Vilna Gaon, Baal HaTanya]), or of
the length of time it takes to do something, such as to walk a mil (2000 cubits)
or to eat a certain amount of bread. So in Talmudic times, or in later times
when clocks were not available,proportional hours could have been read off a
sundial, or by the same token, estimated pretty closely by observing
shadows;activity-based times could be estimated by experience. (Also,both could have
been calibrated fairly closely using other timekeeping devices, such as
hourglasses or water clocks.)
With all of that, halachah does assume that people will make mistakes; this is
why we stop eating chametz four proportional hours into the day on the eve of
Pesach, and burn it one proportional hour later, even though Biblically the
prohibition takes effect only beginning at six hours (midday). Similarly, the
Gemara (Pesachim 12a) entertains the possibility that people might err, in
testifying about the time a particular event happened, by almost three hours-
though the accepted halachah (Rambam, Hil. Edus 2:5) is that the maximum
allowable discrepancy in that context is one hour.
Closer to sunrise or sunset, though, it's much easier to gauge the sun's height
above or below the horizon. So for example, vasikin involves beginning the
Shemoneh Esreh prayer exactly at sunrise,which would have been the easy part;
all that remained would have been to estimate the amount of time it would take
to recite the prayers up to that point, and then you'd know to start praying
when the sky is at a certain level of brightness (i.e., in modern terms, that in
X number of minutes the sun would be over the horizon). Similarly with Shabbos
candles: you'd know it's time to light them when you saw that the sun was a
certain distance above the horizon, corresponding to 18 minutes (or whatever the
local custom was/is - in Jerusalem, for example, they light candles 40 minutes
before sunset).
Kol tuv,
Alex
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From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Fri, Sep 11,2009 at 02:01 AM
Subject: Gadol Hador
On Thu, Sep 10,2009, Harlan Braude <hbraude@...> wrote:
> There may be hundreds of brilliant talmidei chachamim (Torah scholars) in a
> generation, yet few of them seem to obtain this notoriety. Is it based on the
> number of students that claim him as their rebbe? The volume/quality of
> responsa the scholar writes? (and who judges quality? and who selects those
> judges?)
Perhaps the relevant bon-mot of Chazal is "Yiftach bedoro kiShmuel bedoro"
(Rosh Hashanah 28b) which may be loosely translated as "Each generation gets
the leaders it needs (and deserves)".
Martin Stern
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From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Sat, Sep 12,2009 at 06:01 PM
Subject: Hakol yoducha
On Shabbat we all say "Hakol Yoducha" an expanded version of the first
berachah before Kriat Shema, Hameir La'arets.
I noticed one difference between the Ashkenazi and Sfardi versions (also
followed by the Teimani and Chassidic Nusach Sfard) in that the former omits
the verse "Mah rabu massecha ..." (Ps. 114,24)
Can anyone suggest the reasoning behind its omission?
Martin Stern
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From: L Reich <lreich@...>
Date: Fri, Sep 11,2009 at 12:01 PM
Subject: Hareidi line
Menashe Elyashiv <Menashe.Elyashiv@...>
> The line waiting was very very long. Her son took two
> numbers from the queue box. Why?, asked his mother. He answered, mom, learn
> how haredim wait on line. ........ And they didn't think that anything was
> wrong!And they didn't think that anything was wrong!
There have been a number of comments on this story. What nobody sees
to have pointed out is that this in a clear Halachic infringement of " Tofes
L'Ball Chov Bemokoim Shevach La'acherim" (snatching money or goods
on behalf of a creditor to the detriment of the others).
See Bavli - Bava Metzia 10a and Choshen Mishpat 105.
Elozr Reich
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From: David Curwin <tobyndave@...>
Date: Fri, Sep 11,2009 at 03:01 AM
Subject: Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel I - killed by who?
I recently read in "A History of the Jews" by Solomon Grayzel the theory
that Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel (the first) was killed by the Zealots,
apparently in response to his sending Josephus to command the Jews in the
Galil (Josephus ended up switching sides and supported the Romans).
The traditional Jewish view is that Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel was killed by
the Romans - he's listed as one of the 10 martyrs.
Has anyone heard or read anything to support Grayzel's view?
Thanks,
David
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From: <Phyllostac@...>
Date: Fri, Sep 11,2009 at 11:01 AM
Subject: Seudas savlonos
From: Neal Jannol <njannol@...>
> I was reading the back of the "Shaagat Aryeh" - a book
> of legal questions and answers famous for its deep logic. In the back are
> some short tales about the Rabbi of Metz known as the Shaagat Aryeh and in
> one story, there is a wedding to be held on Sunday and Shabbat Afternoon
> there is a "seudat savlanut" at the time of the third shabbat meal,
> apparently some sort of meal in honor of the upcoming wedding. What
> exactly is this custom and is it still done today.
I don't believe this was answered previously, so will respond now.
There is info related to this in Minhogei Vermayza (Minhogim of Worms)
Machon Yerusholayim 2v. annotated edition. See the explanatory notes by Rav
Binyomin Shlomo Hamburger (found via the index), esp. volume two, pages fourteen
and seventeen.
It seems that it was a meal where gifts were given, around a marriage.
I am not aware that is still done today, but who knows... You might post a
query at the minhogim discussion forum of Khal Adas Yeshurun of
Yerusholayim, where minhogei Ashkenaz are discussed quite thoroughly -
http://www.kayj.org/forum.html - or you can contact Rav Hamburger or some other
expert in
such things.
Mordechai
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From: Neal Jannol <njannol@...>
Date: Fri, Sep 11,2009 at 01:01 PM
Subject: Seudas savlonos
Mordechai
> There is info related to this in Minhogei Vermayza (Minhogim of Worms) Machon
> Yerusholayim 2v. annotated edition. See the explanatory notes by Rav Binyomin
> Shlomo Hamburger (found via the index), esp. volume two, pages fourteen and
> seventeen.
>
> It seems that it was a meal where gifts were given, around a marriage.
Wow, thanks. It does appear that some sort of matanah was given and it was
clear that it was normal for the seudah to go into the night. It sounds like
a nice custom
Neal B. Jannol
Loeb & Loeb LLP
Email - <njannol@...>
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From: Dr. Josh Backon <backon@...>
Date: Fri, Sep 11,2009 at 05:01 AM
Subject: Soda Machines
Menashe Elyashiv wrote:
>I went to our building site today. One of the arab workers asked me to buy
>2 hallot for his lunch. I asked him why doesn't he himself go to the
>grocery. He answered - its Ramadan!
This reminds me of the two gentile maids who are discussing their Jewish
employers. One says, "They have a holiday called Shabbat where they smoke
in the bathroom and eat in the kitchen. Then they have a holiday called Tisha
B'Av where they smoke in the kitchen and eat in the bathroom. Then they have
a holiday called Yom Kippur where they BOTH EAT **AND** SMOKE IN THE
BATHROOM !" :-)
Josh Backon
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From: Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz <sabbahillel@...>
Date: Fri, Sep 11,2009 at 09:01 AM
Subject: taking numbers in line
> From: Leah S. R. Gordon <leah@...>
> In light of the pretty-much-universally decried example of the person who
> takes two numbers to have an extra to give to a later-arriving ally, I have
> a related question -
>
> One day in August I went to the DMV in an attempt to renew my driver's
> license. After taking my number and waiting upwards of an hour, I had to
> go. On the way out, I saw an elderly lady just arriving. I gave her
> my unused number so she would not have to wait as long. Was that acceptable?
> I certainly thought so, since she was taking "my" place. And, I figured it
> was helping out someone who might need a bit of respite, seeing as how all
> the seats were taken, it was hot, etc.
I think that the difference is somewhat obvious. However, we can even
make the analogy of someone who needs to go to a place and realizes
that he/she (:-) will get there late and arranges for a friend to go
stand in line until he gets there. In that case as well, only one
position is taken However, the situation may be different if people
at the DMV are called to different windows based on why they are
there. For example, in some states (in the United States) someone
coming to renew a driver's license will actually be given a different
number than someone coming to get a new license plate for a vehicle (a
matter of a letter prefix) and have to go to a different set of
windows.
A more accurate analogy might be someone who is expecting a friend and
takes a number for him as well so that they can both be accommodated
when the friend arrives. I would consider that case different from the
one of someone always taking two numbers, even though only one is
required.
--
Sabba - ' " - Hillel
Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz | Said the fox to the fish, "Join me ashore"
<SabbaHillel@...> | The fish are the Jews, Torah is our water
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7637/544/640/SabbaHillel.jpg
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From: Bernard Raab <beraab@...>
Date: Fri, Sep 11,2009 at 03:01 PM
Subject: taking numbers in line
> From: Leah S. R. Gordon <leah@...>
> One day in August I went to the DMV in an attempt to renew my driver's
> license. After taking my number and waiting upwards of an hour, I had to
> go. On the way out, I saw an elderly lady just arriving. I gave her
> my unused number so she would not have to wait as long. Was that acceptable?
> I certainly thought so, since she was taking "my" place. And, I figured it
> was helping out someone who might need a bit of respite, seeing as how all
> the seats were taken, it was hot, etc.
>
> Thoughts?
My thoughts are that you are a wonderful person and an ahavat chesed, now that I
am among the ziknei ha'aretz [elders of the land -MOD].
A related question: How does this community feel about those who arrive early at
an event and "save seats" for their later-arriving friends? This seems to be a
universally acceptable practice but how does this differ from the gentleman who
took a number for his friend?
Shana Tova--Bernie R.
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From: Rabbi Meir Wise <Meirhwise@...>
Date: Fri, Sep 11,2009 at 12:01 PM
Subject: tevilas kelim
Some time ago during the discussion on tevilas kelim I apparently
raised some eyebrows by stating that in extremis (ie where there is
neither mikve nor water - eg in the mid west of America) there is an
authority who allowed to toivel in a sink or bath filled with the cold
tap fully open!
I was asked online and offline for the source but I am getting old and
couldn't remember where I had read it.
B'H today my beloved son Rabbi Shlomi Wise reminded me.
It is brought in Otzar Dinim Uminhagim of Rabbi J D Eisenstein (Hebrew
publishing company new york 1917) on page 148 under tevilat kelim.
The heter is brought in the name of Harav Reb Avraham Yosef Ash in
Newyork ( all one word).
I believe that rabbi Yaakov Yosef ash was non other
than the first and only chief rabbi of new York after whom the rabbi
Jacob Joseph school us named.
I do apologise for the delay in providing the source and repeat that
this heter must only be used in extremis. (however it might make the
question of whether one's host has toiveled their dishes as most
people wash up in a sink with the tap open at some time or in a
dishwasher - however this question needs to be asked of a recognized
Posek and not of a non-practicing rabbi with a faulty memory!)
Kol tuv
Rabbi Wise of London
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From: Eitan Fiorino <afiorino@...>
Date: Fri, Sep 11,2009 at 01:01 AM
Subject: Yedid Nefesh
Yedid nefesh was written in the late 16th century by the kabbalist Elazar ben
Moshe Askari (or Ezkari) of Sfat and appears in his Sefer Haredim (first ed.
Venice 1601). A digitized copy of this edition can be found on the JNUL website.
-Eitan
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From: Ben Katz <BKatz@...>
Date: Fri, Sep 11,2009 at 04:01 PM
Subject: Yedid Nefesh
From: "Bernard J. SUSSMAN" <sussmanbern@...>
> I am particularly keen, at the moment, on an explanation (in English) of the
> history and variants in the text of Yedid Nefesh. Apparently there are at
> least
> three versions - which in turn means three source documents - one referring to
> "Your beloved child", another to "Your loving child", and a third to "Your
> beloved people".
There is an author's handwritten ms. of yedid nefesh in the JTS library.
The only sidurim with the correct nusach AFAIK are Renat Yisrael and Sim Shalom.
There is a lovely companion volume to Rinat Yisrael which explains why R. Tal
chose the girsaot that he did; in that volume is a photo of the ms.
shabat shalom and shana tova
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End of Volume 57 Issue 24
